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Thread: Do we all 'HAVE' to have the ideal latest/greatest tool?

  1. #16
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    Carl, I suspect you are referring to my post about a super slider.

    I began posting on this forum about a year ago. It is not that I had just then discovered the power tool forum; I'm simply an amateur enjoying building furniture predominantly with hand tools. I have owned and used power tools and machinery for over 30 years, however 20 years or so ago I caught the hand tool bug, and this took me back to the roots of woodworking. If it can be done with a hand tool, then that is the way I go. In recent years I have upgraded my machines, because the ones they replaced were pretty basic and I wanted something that performed more reliably. However they, like my years of hand tool work, have made me aware of how few and how basic the tools need to be to do good work. I have posted many furniture builds where I have only, or predominantly used, a few hand tools. In the last few years I have been selling off or giving away tools to pare down to the essentials. It is quite liberating.

    This forum is quite different from the hand tools forum. The hand tools forum is 99% amateur. That makes sense because I think that one needs to be very skilled, very fit, and ever so mad to work professionally with just hand tools ... unless you are building furniture such as Windsor chairs. Machinery makes sense otherwise.

    The question is what percentage of the power tool forum are amateur? I suspect that it is about half. I asked the question before how the super sliders and monster jointers, etc make a difference. Well, the answers stated that they do save a lot of time, but I suspect is that this statement is that it is so in areas where parts are mass produced. I do not see how these super machines would make much difference to a single, or small team, of furniture makers building one-off pieces. Building one-off pieces is more typical of what amateurs also do. Further, I know many professional furniture makers who have managed with rather ho-hum equipment. By extrapolation, then, what role do these super machines play for amateurs?

    Suggesting that there is a limit to the machines that are "good enough" for amateurs is a really daft statement. Human nature being what it is indicates that there will be those that buy the best there is, those that buy the best they can afford, and those that dream of buying something to get started. The long-and-short of it is that my message is for the latter groups, especially those who are just interested in building and joined this forum: you do not need expensive tool or machines to do excellent work. You need passion, and then you need perseverance, because at the end you will develop skills. Great tools are wonderful (I love them), but they are not necessary.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Santos View Post
    And in the alternative, even if you buy the very best violin, it will not guarantee that you can make or play great music or any music for that matter.
    I've very long thought that the same thing applies to photography. You need to invest to ensure some level of output quality, but beyond that it comes down to passion, hard work, and talent.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Santos View Post
    Very good topic. A few random thoughts provoked by your post (these are the thoughts that go through my head when I start feeling influenced by the gear talk you're describing):


    I try to picture an equilateral triangle. One side is my budget, one side is my tools, one side is my skills. I am always trying to keep them equal. For the person genuinely interested in the craft of woodworking, I am a big proponent of education, even weekend workshops. In my experience, I have always left with more skills then when I arrived. In fact in some ways my existing tools became new to me because I had learned new ways to unlock their potential. "

    Yes! And for those on a tight budget there is so much information that is available for free (internet) or almost free (used books on line). I bought a block plane as one of my first tools 40 years ago and used it occasionaly. 10 years ago I learned how to "Properly" tune and sharpen one and it opened up a whole new confidence and respect for the use of one. I use it way more now.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 01-06-2019 at 10:18 AM. Reason: fixed quote tagging

  4. #19
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    My thoughts. Most of this is how I've approached this since my first early purchases that ultimately cost me a lot more than the initial cost:


    • Buying tools optimally needs to be treated like an investment..."trading" adds cost and "cheap tools" most often end up costing more than buying quality the first time. That doesn't mean someone has to buy high-end. It does mean "do your research" and buy the best you can afford for the work you anticipate you will be doing plus a little more
    • There is merit in choosing a good used machine when you can get "more machine" and have the time and willingness to recondition it if necessary to bring it back to like-new performance
    • There is no such thing as "too much tool"...within reason. More capacity and capability isn't a liability. Not enough capacity and capability makes you spend more money sooner than you might prefer. That's not to say you should use a Sherman Tank to mow your lawn! Be realistic and keep in mind that you can easily make small things with larger tools but it can be very difficult to make large things efficiently and safely with small tools
    • Your tool choices should fit and support your workflow preferences for the projects you like to make or anticipate you will like to make
    • Mobility and flexibility is your friend when you are not endowed with huge expanses of space and it helps alleviate the contention between buying small things instead of what you really want/need to do the job well and safely
    • Along the same lines...be open minded. There are tool choices today that didn't exist in the same way a decade ago. Examples: Track Saws, joinery systems like Domino, J/P combos with bigger capacities in compact space, etc. Maybe something "less traditional" will work better for you "instead" of the same-old-same-old
    • There's nothing wrong with "one time" inexpensive tool choices if you truly feel it's not something you're going to use long-term
    • It often makes sense to buy less expensive tooling (bits/blades) initially and then replace individual items with "the good stuff" once you determine what you really use often. But don't buy huge sets of things. Keep it targeted so you don't have a lot of things that just sit around, take up space and never get used. Stick with "basic" assortments of anything you buy as assortments
    • Don't compromise and buy something of lesser quality or capability when you know you need something better or more capable...it's better to wait an extra month or three to acquire more funds to get what you really want and need than to buy something that will not actually meet your ongoing needs
    • Take advantage of sales and other formats of discounts when you can. Almost all of my big machines had "show discounts" or other incentives which reduced my cost in a meaningful way. This does take planning and patience, but it's very much in line with the previous bullet, too


    Nowhere here did I say that you have to have the latest/greatest gear. It all boils down to making informed choices that don't cost you money multiple times. It doesn't matter if this is an avocation or a vocation, either...the same applies across the board. There's a reason that my signature has featured a particular statement for many years now...and it started with experience.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 01-06-2019 at 10:18 AM.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prashun Patel View Post
    Usually you get what you pay for. Better tools are expensive for a reason. Rehabbed tools require some expertise and effort which is also a cost.

    That has never meant that if you can’t afford the best violin you can’t make great music. This is an extrapolation that nobody ever intends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Zara View Post
    Buy the best you can buy and buy what makes sense.

    I don't think anyone here is advocating that everyone should buy a Martin slider
    I'm definitely in this camp. Ideally, folks tend to recommend what they have experience with and hove found to be the better way of doing something. Not quite as ideal are those who recommend things they do not have experience with but, perceive as what they think that they would want. Way down the scale are folks who respond basing their response on themselves and completely ignoring the OP's original query.

    The last example comes in forms at both ends of the spectrum. One responder who ignores that the OP states that they have only 120v service available will recommend some flagship machine that will not operate in the OP's shop. Another may poo-poo the spending of copious amounts of dough on something they feel a flea-market find and a little Evap-o-Rust will handle.

    The forum (like the internet) is a source of lots of information. Much of this information is not regulated and can either be poorly vetted or not sanity-checked at all. This does not make it of low value. It is our job to work through this volume of free data and glean the parts that apply or make sense for us. Read-on McDuff!
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Calow View Post
    The best tool to buy is not the most expensive (even if it performs the best), its the best value for you. That is, you have to judge how much you're going to use it and for what, to determine whether it is worth it to you. ....... No $200 coping saws either.
    This is a really important point. I don't think I'd get enough use from the Festool Router Table I slobber over to make it worth the money - to me.

    I did buy that $125 fret saw though. But I did that after trying a couple cheaper tools, tuning them per the blogs and videos, and still not getting what I needed from them. For me, that dog gone KC fretsaw was worth every dime.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Santos View Post
    The greatest woodworking masters were not known for their particular tools, they were known for their skills. Maloof, Krenov, Nakashima, Esherick were not remembered for the brand of table saw or band saw they owned.
    Ha, that depends on how twisted you are. One of the first things that comes to my mind when someone mentions Maloof is him standing in front of an Agazzani bandsaw roughing out chair parts...
    Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.

    Deep thought for the day:

    Your bandsaw weighs more when you leave the spring compressed instead of relieving the tension.

  8. #23
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    Personal progress is what’s important and makes you feel good about walking into the workshop. That can be a new tool or a new way to use an old tool, or a restored tool or a new approach to technique. Anything really that improves your work or attitude toward your work in anyway that you define it.

    Consider the fact that other people having tools that you don’t have and sharing about them is incredibly helpful
    to you. If you call a company you get a sales pitch, if you post here you get a user’s direct input and in some cases a professional user’s input.

    In the past it was typically the case that certain communities developed a craft or technique very well because for one reason or another a lot of competition cropped up in one area and over decades the information was shared within the community. That happens here incredibly rapidly and the information is accessible with a quick search.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Citerone View Post
    Where I think you are wrong is people always suggest craig's list here for tools, machines, and lumber too. Also if someone asked how to tune up an old plane or chisel or power tool they would get tons of help that would be low dollar solutions from people who want to help,and understand that a lot ot people, especially young people are watching every penny.

    This is a good forum and if you word your post so that people know you are watching your finances, you will get the answers you need. IMHO
    Ron
    I'm guilty of suggesting CL for machines, not so much tools, and I should qualify that suggestion more.
    If you have the mechanical aptitude and the requisite tools, a person can buy some amazing "vintage iron", or higher end machines that need some level of refurbishment. If a person does not, don't buy them. It's a waste of their time and money, unless they want to learn.
    More what I am suggesting is newer machines that can still be purchased. Machines that are still supported. For every machine on sale currently in a Home Depot, or Lowes, there are a 1/2dozen of the same for sale used. It's a good way to "test the waters" so to speak.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  10. #25
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    Yes...err... no!

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Beckett View Post
    This topic came up on a different thread, that much of the advice in the power tools sections is geared towards very expensive, ideal solutions. Many of the active members in this section are professionals or psuedo professionals. And a lot of posts are about the merits of buying the ideal tool because it saves $ in the long run. (labor saving, never fails, maintenance free, etc)

    [...]

    PLEASE, I intend this post in the most RESPECTFUL manner possible.
    It is the same for virtually all activities that can be either a profession or an hobby. I have experience with Photography and Music. The same questioning raises from time to time in all groups...

    I divided woodworkers in two categories, professional and amateur. Professionals have his/her bread and butter from woodworking so the most important thing in a tool decision would be ROI (return of investment) - note I wrote "would be" as some of them are drived (or divided) by passion also.

    Amateurs are a complete different class of woodworkers. They bring bread and butter to home with a different activity than woodworking. As name suggests they "love" woodworking for some reason and are ready to put his/her spare money and time on that. Note the ROI isn't the main criterion for amateurs although sometimes they try to deceive themselves with some kind of overmanipulated ROI estimation. Some amateurs are drived by final results and will looking for tools as, well, tool, and are concentrated on final result. Other amateurs are fascinated with the making process, usually they really appreciate the wood handling and to see the transformation process. When the piece is finished they will donate it and in same extreme cases dump it. Other amateurs appreciate tools, something Freudian, I guess - either electric or manual tools. They love to touch the tools and dream with future projects usually never will come. Others will have focus on different aspects on woodworking or, more frequently, a combination of factors with different weights.

    Bottom line is people, mainly amateurs (like myself) can have very different reasons to ship into woodworking and probably very different from yours (or mine). All of them are valid as they are using their own money and time... and, above all, having fun!
    Last edited by Osvaldo Cristo; 01-06-2019 at 11:02 AM. Reason: Typo, as usual
    All the best.

    Osvaldo.

  11. #26
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    The nice thing about SMC and other sites on the web is the diversity in the people who frequent these sites. Thus we are taught many different perspectives on how to accomplish the task at hand. In the end we are all different individuals with different ideas and backgrounds, and only we can determine what is and is not important to us in what we do, and how we do it.

  12. #27
    I think it should totally depend on your budget and commitment. One thing that I think is true is that quantity is a quality all of it's own. Having the right tool for the job helps, even if it isn't the best in class.

    I started off woodworking after I bought a house about 12 years ago. The first home project I did with a bench top table saw borrowed from my father. I did that once, and then upgraded to a Ridgid contractor saw. I added a bunch of fairly inexpensive hobby level tools (craftsman router, table, 9" benchtop bandsaw, 1 hp bagged dust collector, 5" dewalt ROS etc.). I was lucky in that I was able to get a few of my tools like a DW735 and Ridgid 6" jointer when Home Depot was clearing out their floor models; which allowed me to have a fairly complete shop without a huge investment. I didn't really use the jointer for about a year or two after I bought it [I was committed to the hobby at that point], because I was still buying mostly surfaced lumber; but when I built my kitchen it was hugely important to have the jointer and planer available to surface the lumber; now I use mostly rough lumber.

    I've now got a Sawstop 3HP, MM16, and FS41; and a bunch of quality portable tools. I would never suggest someone buys a $7000 1000lb. piece of equipment for a hobby they are just starting out in, but at this point it is what is right for me.

  13. #28
    It all goes around. I just sharpened up a older off brand plane and its cuts as good as my Lie Nielson for the most part.

    I would love to have a Festool Domino tool, but settled on the Jessem dowel jig. So far its working fine. in the end it will provide the same connection really.

  14. #29
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    My road started with a makita router and a Craftsman t.s.Four pipe clamps and four chisels and a jack plane. I added a Delta 6 jointer and a 12'' portable planer next. A few years later it was a drill press then eventually a band saw. I bought things as funds allowed ,which was slooow. I discovered used tools were the same stuff but way cheaper. I am a carpenter so use my stuff to make money as well for myself.I just purchased a shaper yesterday and figured out that I have a Minimax T50 shaper ,Felder edgebander, Felder k700s slider,a Centauro 600 bandsaw,and a Paolini 16'' jointer for just under 20k. All used ,several in new condition,there is no way I could afford this stuff new. For me I have also figured out that it is easier to 'erase' mistakes and resell to recoup or even make money when one buys used. I have bought and sold and horsetraded my way to this shop ,I am done buying . Pure pleasure working in my shop,every machine I turn on makes me smile now. When I remember some of the things that have been replaced,there was more joy seeing them go than using them. Mike.

  15. #30
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    I will add the thought I expressed in the other thread, too...there is a lot to learn from posts about all kinds and levels of gear. Even if one doesn't aspire to, say...a big slider...learning about these tools including how they work and what they can do isn't harmful in any way. Learning about what the production shop pros care about isn't harmful in any way. Learning about what floats a solitary "pro" woodworker's boat is not harmful in any way. Learning about what more economical tools can and cannot do isn't harmful in any way. That's what's great about forum sites like SMC...the shear diversity of people who participate is amazing and there is something to learn from everyone who actively participates regardless of their background or whether or not they earn money from woodworking or just do it for pleasure. (or somewhere in between)
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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