I just don’t get it I'm trying to learn

[James Pallas]

It seems to me that many people use a grinder or power sharpening regularly even routinely. I do use a grinder but rarely. I grind a chisel or plane iron and than just maintain it unless I damage it enough to warrant grinding. If the bevel gets to flat I just maintain it that way. I have chisels in regular use that have not seen a grinder in five years. Granted I’m not doing as much work as I had in the past, even then I didn’t use a grinder much. I did buy a CBN wheel and it works very well. I guess the questions I have are,
Do you grind as soon as the arc is gone.
Do you grind every time you sharpen
How long does it take you to maintain a blade, ie 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 20 minutes

it usually takes me between 2 and five minutes to maintain an edge even when flat bevel.

This is not meant to be critical of anyone’s methods. Just trying to learn.
Jim

I messed up the header somehow

[ken hatch]

It seems to me that many people use a grinder or power sharpening regularly even routinely. I do use a grinder but rarely. I grind a chisel or plane iron and than just maintain it unless I damage it enough to warrant grinding. If the bevel gets to flat I just maintain it that way. I have chisels in regular use that have not seen a grinder in five years. Granted I’m not doing as much work as I had in the past, even then I didn’t use a grinder much. I did buy a CBN wheel and it works very well. I guess the questions I have are,
Do you grind as soon as the arc is gone.
Do you grind every time you sharpen
How long does it take you to maintain a blade, ie 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 20 minutes

it usually takes me between 2 and five minutes to maintain an edge even when flat bevel.

This is not meant to be critical of anyone’s methods. Just trying to learn.
Jim

I messed up the header somehow

Jim,

We are in the same school, even sounds like maybe the same classroom.:-)

I will grind if the edge is in need of more work than my short attention span on the stones allow. Either way, grind or no grind, it is usually a two stone, occasionally three stone process. Most of my bevels are flat except when fresh off the grinder or a convex bevel is needed.

ken

[Vincent Tai]

“Arc is gone”? I’m going to assume the hollow? I grind well before that. Usually. Some irons are thin and small enough that I just go meh and be lazy sometimes. Even for a full size vintage Stanley plane iron I sometimes let go until the hollow is mostly gone.

I do not grind every time I sharpen. I would question the usefulness of doing so. Would say it’s useless to do so frankly unless one has a habit of dropping tools or nicking the edge on something hard. Oh yikes that’s me except I always drop on my feet. Breaks the fall well.

The first few honings off a fresh, near fresh hollow is very quick, around 30-40 seconds, sometimes less more or less depending on tool size or sharpening method. And then you reach 1 min, 2, etc as the days go by. Depends on how much wear between each session too. Plane blades seem to stay away longer from the grinder. Also tools I choose to hollow grind but sharpen with a secondary bevel can stay away from the grinder for a while. No grinding of the “other end of the hollow” means the hollow stays intact a bit longer I guess. Sometimes the blades seem to plateau for a bit at a certain time, 2-3 min range maybe.

As for regrinding, a quick and accurately repeatable angle setting jig is useful. Necessary in my books. The ones like what the Veritas rest comes with are useless. I’m not too sure on the speed of say the tormek jig but the accuracy seems very nice and if you can keep the angle somehow for your rest of the tools then perhaps the extra time setting up is made up in ease of repeatable grinding.

Regrinding should be a quick affair, a “quick buzz” at the grinder should do it for many chisel sizes. 30-40 seconds for a thick plane blade that has seen some good honing. Maybe 90 seconds or more for more shallow angles on thick stuff or for something I’ve really let the hollow get away.

Maintaining a hollow is useful on thick hard stuff. Even just maintaining a ball park grinding angle and honing on a secondary bevel is very useful and quick, actually a bit quicker, you can work on the stone faster then balancing on the hollow. I choose to do this on many tools, Stanley irons, some odds and ends, super thick stuff, some slimmer stuff, something like the blunt chisel technique is an extreme example of angles, grind at a “normal” angle and hone around 90 degrees.

[Tom M King]

I never grind unless the edge is damaged. I never worry about how much of a hollow. It starts with a hollow, whenever it comes off the grinder, but after that, the flat just takes over the bevel until, and if, it needs to visit a grinder again. I have helpers that are hopeless by hand, but can get a sharp edge as good as I can when using my setting gauges, and a jig. We never do micro bevels either. There is no guesswork, and angles are always maintained exactly the same.

Probably not much over a minute for honing in the middle of a job. Irons start at 6k in the middle of a job. Maybe three minutes if starting from scratch. The sharpening sink is set up, ready to go always. We use sharp chisels for many things other than normal woodworking uses, so the system needs to be efficient, and so anyone can do it.

[Jim Koepke]

I have chisels in regular use that have not seen a grinder in five years.

I will grind if the edge is in need of more work

I never grind unless the edge is damaged. I never worry about how much of a hollow.

My blades are kept away from grinding as long as they can be easily sharpened on stones.

The power sharpening system in my shop produces a flat bevel.

Currently a foot powered grinding stone is being set up for shop use. Though it might only be useable outside:

10%22 Radius Hollow Grind.jpg

Maybe having the ability to grind a hollow will get me to grind a hollow more often.

jtk

[ken hatch]

I don't find a hollow all that useful as a means of registering the chisel, a good flat bevel works just as well. If I've dubbed the edge of a flat bevel I'll usually go to the grinder to fix. Like I posted before I have a short attention span on the stones and will sharpen earlier rather than later. BTW I've the new Tormek diamond stone that will grind a flat bevel. I haven't tried it yet. Next time I've a few spare minutes in the shop I'll give it a go and a thumbs up or down. I will say it is faster than the CBN wheel it replaced but also a much coarser grind. Removing the grind marks on a flat bevel might be more work than I would like..

ken

[James Pallas]

[QUOTE=Vincent Tai;2883670]“Arc is gone”? Funny what a person is use to saying. I'm used to calling arc like an arch and a hollow like a bowl. So a hollow to me is like the face of a Japanese chisel
Jim

[James Pallas]

I don't find a hollow all that useful as a means of registering the chisel, a good flat bevel works just as well. If I've dubbed the edge of a flat bevel I'll usually go to the grinder to fix. Like I posted before I have a short attention span on the stones and will sharpen earlier rather than later. BTW I've the new Tormek diamond stone that will grind a flat bevel. I haven't tried it yet. Next time I've a few spare minutes in the shop I'll give it a go and a thumbs up or down. I will say it is faster than the CBN wheel it replaced but also a much coarser grind. Removing the grind marks on a flat bevel might be more work than I would like..

ken

i tried a friends Tormek once. Maybe it was the setup but I found it very slow. I don't do many chisel refurbishes so not a lot of flattening. I also think that when you flatten you have a good chance of putting the good part out of parallel with the other side. Then you use a guide and your out of whack somewhat. I'm not saying that all chisel come parallel either or square to the sides or not tapered along the length. IMO that is why guides don't work so well sometimes. I do own some tho. When I do grind I don't worry much about the finish in the arc "hollow" I don't think it too difficult to work a narrow edge off of a 36 grit stone but do find it to be more work than just cleaning up a good full bevel because I can't seem to balance that well. All the high speed, low speed this system or that system has me confused and thinking I'm not up to date.
Jim

[Tom M King]

There is no one right way. The work doesn't care how you get it sharp. It only needs to be a sharp intersection of the bevel, and back side.

[Vincent Tai]

There is no one right way. The work doesn't care how you get it sharp. It only needs to be a sharp intersection of the bevel, and back side.

So true. I have tools that never touch the grinder and I really don't notice the extra time spent on stones. Recently a majority of my honing is on the spyderco ceramics with a Jnat as the finisher, Atoma 1200x as the more aggressive stone when needed. Maybe next week I'll use my water stones more. I also need to get oilstones, just to satisfy some unhealthy urges.

[ken hatch]

i tried a friends Tormek once. Maybe it was the setup but I found it very slow. I don't do many chisel refurbishes so not a lot of flattening. I also think that when you flatten you have a good chance of putting the good part out of parallel with the other side. Then you use a guide and your out of whack somewhat. I'm not saying that all chisel come parallel either or square to the sides or not tapered along the length. IMO that is why guides don't work so well sometimes. I do own some tho. When I do grind I don't worry much about the finish in the arc "hollow" I don't think it too difficult to work a narrow edge off of a 36 grit stone but do find it to be more work than just cleaning up a good full bevel because I can't seem to balance that well. All the high speed, low speed this system or that system has me confused and thinking I'm not up to date.
Jim

Jim,

I have a like/hate relationship with the Tormek. CBN and now diamond wheels have moved the needle more to the like side than hate but yes it is slow. The things that save it are the new 77 jig and it is almost impossible to burn your tools. If I used it more I would go a different route and if I didn't own one I would not buy one.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe next week I'll use my water stones more. I also need to get oilstones, just to satisfy some unhealthy urges.

My water stones are on vacation when it is cold enough for water to freeze in the shop. Quartz heaters were on sale recently so one was acquired for the shop.

jtk

[Bob Glenn]

It's easier to keep a tool sharp than to sharpen it when it gets dull.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, my sharpening methods vary according to the needs of the blade. (1) Japanese paring chisels are honed flat by hand, and never touch a grinder. (2) All bench chisels and BD plane blades are hollow ground at 30 degrees, and then freehanded directly on the hollow. (3) All BU plane blades are hollow ground at 25 degrees, and then receive a secondary bevel using a honing guide.

It is the second group that will interest you most. The system that I have written about so frequently is based on as full a hollow as possible. The Tormek guides (whether used on the Tormek or bench grinder) allow for a high degree of accuracy, and the CBN wheel creates a fine and even surface. The aim is to leave the minimum amount of steel to hone, which is a bonus with the more abrasive resistant steels, such as PM-V11 and A2. I love using O1, but the edges last a very short time on my local woods. Maximum hollow, minimum honing time.

I touch up the edge as soon as I feel it not cutting easily. At first this requires only the 6000 and 13000 stones. About half a dozen honings into the edge, and the micro bevel has increased in size to about 2mm in width. At that point the 1000 grit stone is used. I would continue this way until the edge is 3mm, and then it is time to grind the hollow again. The point of the hollow is to speed up honing. Once this is not happening, grind again. How frequently one grinds depends on the steel type, the honing media, and the skill in achieving the largest hollow in the first place.

It is important to realise that grinding takes steel from inside the bevel face, and does not remove steel from the length of the blade. There seems to be a misconception that grinding reduces the length of a blade - it might it one is a beginner or ham-fisted.

The second misconception is that there is a big danger in overheating the edge and losing temper. This is possible, even on CBN wheels. However it really takes a LOT of heat to change temper. Getting hot in your hand does not count. The CBN wheel was a game changer, partly because it is a big heat sink. The bottom line is that learning to hollow is like any skill, and once learned it offers advantages.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom Stenzel]

There is no one right way. The work doesn't care how you get it sharp. It only needs to be a sharp intersection of the bevel, and back side.

Please, don't try to talk sense. This is the internet where the short people that live under bridges come out!

To answer the original question, I don't have any modern alloys and use oil stones. The result:

Do you grind as soon as the arc is gone- No.

Do you grind every time you sharpen- NO!

How long does it take you to maintain a blade, ie 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 20 minutes- Too long. But for me sharpening is when I relax and think about what I'm trying accomplish. Grinding happens to repair a chip and using just the stones would take forever. Once I blued the corner of my #7 iron with my grinder, really ticked me off. Other than that I've had no problem with the normal gray wheels.

My sharpening could be better.

-Tom