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Thread: Annealing or deep engraving?

  1. #1

    Annealing or deep engraving?

    Hi,
    I have attached two pics. It’s a stainless steel piece and I have deep engraved and annealed on it. The First pic is in direct sunlight ( the annealed letter t on the right is almost invisible). The second pic is in less direct light ( the annealed letter t is very black). I just can’t figure out how to get a deeply engraved letter to be as black as the annealed letter In the second pic. I can burn the metal but then it has a very rough feel. If I try to polish out the roughness, then I loose the blackness. With annealing, it’s smooth and black but it totally looses the ability to see it when it’s in sunlight. This is getting beyond frustrating. Are there parameters or settings available that I just am missing?

    I have a 30w fiber laser and the software is Ezcad.

    I do pet tags, bracelets necklaces etc.

    I’d love any suggestions!
    Thanks, Marianne
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Marianne Rusche; 01-03-2019 at 4:18 PM.

  2. #2
    I've come to the conclusion there's nothing you can do about either problem.

    Annealing causes the carbon at the surface to oxidize. Once you deep engrave, and this is just conjecture/guessing on my part, the engraving somehow affects the surface carbon (removes or destroys it maybe?), and it simply won't darken via annealing.

    Annealing does make a nice black mark, but yes, it's a 'directional' thing as to how the light hits it. However, in most indirect light situations the annealing is quite visible. I anneal a lot of knife blades, but before I do, I show the customer that it WILL change its look at different lighting angles. I sell it as a 'holographic effect', since I really don't know what else to call it. Most customers think it's pretty cool. I've found that to lessen the effect, which is counterproductive to making money at it, it to run a first pass with a bit higher speed and power, and a bit lower frequency-- there's a sweet spot where the laser will make a very slight impression in the metal. Then I follow it with good blackening pass. This seems to lessen the holographic effect. This knife blade took real well, looks almost painted. It does lighten as you angle it, but not much
    knife1.jpgknife2.jpg
    But, it's not fast by any means...

    >edit> just took a close look at your 'washed out' anneal, look like you removed some metal?
    Last edited by Kev Williams; 01-03-2019 at 10:59 PM.
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  3. #3
    Kev,
    Thanks! Your pics of your name look really good! Do you use Ezcad and if so would you mind sharing the parameters you used. How many hatches and how many loops, speed, frequency etc.
    thanks so much,
    marianne

  4. #4
    My Triumph is 30 watts, I don't remember exactly how I did the knife, but my current basics are:
    90° hatch, spacing real close, between .001 and .002 (usually I split the diff at .0015)
    speed 120 to 200 (150 typ)
    power 33
    freq 72
    focus dead on

    That's my machine. Now, since I've owned it, by contrast Gary's settings always include running somewhat out of focus. With my Triumph I've never found that necessary. BUT, my second 30w machine I recently acquired via ebay, and thinking it may actually be 50w as the 2 machines are wildly different, I've found I MUST run it somewhat out of focus for best results, and I've only test-annealed with it so far. Just wanted to point out that focus is a consideration...

    I usually run one pass, but I've found a second pass usually helps, but it eats the time. I did a revolver frame recently using a bit different settings, per my notes:
    .008 hatch spacing
    1 run at 200/60/75, this BARELY
    engraves the metal, then make 2 passes
    at 200/40/80, this gets it black-

    The engraving was small so it really didn't take all that long, and it came out much like my knife.

    Another factor, the mass of the metal you're engraving, meaning, the bigger/thicker it is, the blacker you can get. My opinion: smaller pieces get very hot, very fast, and the high metal temp may be counterproductive to the annealing process. Don't know that for sure but it seems that way --The revolver had enough mass to absorb a lot of heat, which could explain the good results...

    Every laser is different, and every part you mark with them is different. Always an experiment in progress
    ========================================
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    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  5. #5
    74FFA811-4992-4469-95C2-33EA2F92558B.jpgThanks! I just used your parameters and got this result! It’s a small 2.5mm letter and it took me 1:42 seconds. I did 2 passes. I have a crosshatch feature but I kept it turned off and just did 90 degrees with 2 passes. It does have the hologram effect a bit. I’ve been trying to use all 3 hatches. One for deep cutting, two for burning and three to try to smooth out the roughness of the cut and burn. I really haven’t had success in trying to get that to work. Just a lot of set up and waste of stainless steel. I still overall like the look of deep engraving but this annealing has promise.
    Thanks for sharing your expertise! Have you ever tried to deeply cut and then anneal on top of that? First I guess it would take forever. Just wondering.... Marianne

  6. #6
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    And to throw in another twist - the size of the mark will make a difference, it did for me anyway. I spent a lot of time creating a grid of about .25" squares and had a great variety of color. When I used the same settings on a larger design they were not the same. The process of staining (mislabeled annealing) is dictated by heat produced in the area of the beam so a difference in size of the marking area can have a great affect on the color, and more importantly, the consistency of the color.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne Rusche View Post
    74FFA811-4992-4469-95C2-33EA2F92558B.jpgThanks! I just used your parameters and got this result! It’s a small 2.5mm letter and it took me 1:42 seconds. I did 2 passes. I have a crosshatch feature but I kept it turned off and just did 90 degrees with 2 passes. It does have the hologram effect a bit. I’ve been trying to use all 3 hatches. One for deep cutting, two for burning and three to try to smooth out the roughness of the cut and burn. I really haven’t had success in trying to get that to work. Just a lot of set up and waste of stainless steel. I still overall like the look of deep engraving but this annealing has promise.
    Thanks for sharing your expertise! Have you ever tried to deeply cut and then anneal on top of that? First I guess it would take forever. Just wondering.... Marianne

  7. #7
    Oh boy, it’s always something! All I’d like to achieve is a nice darkened, smooth and deep engraved metal piece. Seems like ever metal or every parameter I try, there’s something that seems to not go great. These fiber lasers are amazing but they aren’t easy . Some days, like today, I feel like giving up and selling my laser. 😩 if I was to consider selling it, can you do that on this forum or is that a no no? Just frustrated and wondering... Marianne

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marianne Rusche View Post
    Oh boy, it’s always something! All I’d like to achieve is a nice darkened, smooth and deep engraved metal piece. Seems like ever metal or every parameter I try, there’s something that seems to not go great. These fiber lasers are amazing but they aren’t easy . Some days, like today, I feel like giving up and selling my laser.  if I was to consider selling it, can you do that on this forum or is that a no no? Just frustrated and wondering... Marianne
    To be blunt - if your goal is to do black (or dark) marking on metal and actually make money, then you'd be better off selling your laser. It's just not cost effective and even with a MOPA it's too slow to be profitable. If you have realistic expectations of the capabilities of the laser then you'll find a niche and you can make a ton of money if you do it right. Instead of trying to force the laser to do something it's not very good at, make it do what it excels at!

  9. #9
    Gary,
    I SO appreciate your candor! I saved up quit a long time to purchase my fiber laser. I was doing hand metal stamping before and the laser opened up an opportunity to possible do logos, my own designs and any font I want. I guess I’m just learning the challenges of the laser. I do need to find a way to work with the advantages that the laser provides. With your experience with lasers, what are the areas that you have found that the laser best excels at? I appreciate the advice I receive on this forum. I also am willing to learn from people like you that take the time to respond!
    Thanks, Marianne

  10. #10
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    One thing I've found that somewhat reduces the roughness is to not mark a contour. (uncheck that box) Don't know if you are using that, but it might help a bit.
    And I do find marks are a bit better / darker if I'm out of focus just a mm or two. If you want a bit of a depth to the engraving before darkening it, try what Tykma calls silver mark. 2000 speed, 2 passes at 90 frequency of 65, power at about 50 percent (20 watt) shallow quick and anneals as good as polished surface.
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  11. #11
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    Keep in mind that this is MY experience and it certainly won't work for everyone, everywhere. Firearms and anodized aluminum are extremely profitable if you can find the right customers, retail sucks, artsy/craftsy sucks too unless you can find someone selling high-end products and can afford to pay you what your time is worth. I based most of my quotes on $125-$250 per hour and usually got quite a bit more than that, and in 12+ years I can count the number of people that complained about my prices on one hand, and have several fingers left over! Find what other engravers aren't willing or able to do and do that! Where are you located? That could be a big factor in what you might be able to do.

  12. #12
    John,
    Thanks! I don’t have the contour checked. I’m open to trying all kinds of different ways to get a smooth dark mark. I’ll definitely try your suggestions from tykma. I guess it’s all about experimenting right now!
    Thanks

  13. #13
    Gary,
    yes that is the trouble I’m running into. I sell pet tags, keyrings Jewelry and it’s such a competitive market. Also, some people sell their items so cheap online that it’s been hard to justify the cost of the laser. My margins were better when I was just hand metal stamping. I do think I totally need to rethink what I am making and selling. If the laser is just going to take more time to engrave, then I’m going to have to go after a higher end market. I live in South Florida and I’m close to Palm Beach. The pet tag market is huge but it is also super saturated. I’m beginning to believe that fiber lasers aren’t so much for huge volume but rather higher priced, higher quality, very personalized items. I’m not much of a gun person but I can see that that could be a good market! Is this kinda how you feel as well?

  14. #14
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    I don't know of anyone who makes and sells engraved items, and makes decent money doing it. Unless you are making a unique part that a lot of people need, not just want, then you can't really charge what you need to, especially if there is a lot of competition. Fiber lasers are great for huge volume, one-offs are usually not too profitable - it takes about the same amount of time to interact with a customer for one piece as it does 100's, and once you are setup to run 100's of parts they can go very quickly compared to setting up 100's of different jobs. The most revenue per part/hour/job will be marking lots of small anodized aluminum parts for someone else. They can't be inexpensive pieces where your engraving cost is a large portion of the price for the part. If you are not a gun person then it takes away one item but there are enough others out there for you to make plenty of money. Have you seen the movie The Graduate? My "one word" is two, but it's the same idea - anodized aluminum.

  15. #15
    Yes, I haven’t done anything with anodized aluminum but maybe it’s something to look into. I guess it would definitely be quicker than trying to anneal or trying to deeply engrave stainless steel. Do you agree? Seems like you are engraving just though the anodized part. No polishing and no inking. My only reference right now for anodized aluminum is through colored pet id tags that you buy at a pet store. Is this the type of metal you are referring too? Do you have any thoughts about other markets I could look into that are in need of laser anodized aluminum. I only know about pet tags

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