To buy or not to buy

[Kev Williams]

yeah there is, one of my customers has been there, I'll see what I can out--

Ok, here's one in Salt Lake, probably it-- linky: https://makesaltlake.org/contact/

--one in Provo, at least I think : http://www.provolt.org/

[Bert Kemp]

Rabbit Laser has good quality Co2 lasers with great support and reasonable prices. I've had mine for going on 5 years I think and its still working great, Knock wood a 60 or 80 watt 6040 would be a good machine to start with. Its big enough to do a lot of stuff on and will last a long time if you take care of it. Give Ray Scott a call at Rabbit Laser USA and ask him about machines. I think he might even have some fibers in stock now. not sure on that but check.

[Steve Clarkson]

Daniel.....first, I would be shocked if you could make $100K+ doing gun stock engraving as a startup. You might be able to gross that amount, but I think it would be a miracle to net that.

Second, you should probably forget the Glowforge…..I think the Z clearance is like 0.5"....and for gunstocks you'll need atleast 4-5" I'm guessing. You probably don't need a huge bed either.....if you can get a laser with a pass thru or where the interlocks can be overridden, you can do the top or bottom 12-18".....which is where most designs are engraved. You should also look at CNC machines.....lasers like flat surfaces and gun stocks usually are not. A CNC can do more "3D" type engraving. Although CNC's are generally cheaper than lasers, the software learning curve is substantially higher.

Third, you need designs and practice....."putting a little scroll work" on a stock SOUNDS relatively simple, but I guarantee you will do far more work on the design and set up than you will do for the actual engraving. Although living in a tourist town might be beneficial if you are making tchotchkes, atleast here in New York people don't walk around town with a gun on their hip and suddenly decide to get it engraved. Your best source of business will likely be referrals from gunsmiths. My recommendation is that you find every gunsmith within 1/2 day's drive and visit them, get feedback from them, develop relationships with them and ask if they have any "broken" gun stocks that you can have for free or dirt cheap so that you can practice on them.

And gunstocks are usually not cheap and are sometimes irreplaceable. What are your plans when you screw it up? If Joe asks you to engrave "1864" on great grandpa's gun from 1865.....what do you do? Even when Joe insists he told you "1865"? It's a no win situation. FYI.....you WILL screw something up. It's guaranteed.

I did all the gunstock engraving for a large national outdoor retailer until they screwed me over when they filed bankruptcy a few years ago. I never had a FFL license, so I doubt you would need one. You just need to be crystal clear about what parts they can and cannot send you. But I can almost guarantee it will happen......so you need a plan for when that does happen. It happened to me once.....and these were professional gunsmiths who KNEW that I did not have a license.

My recommendation, for what it's worth, is that you get a few gunstocks to practice on, get a copy of CorelDraw or whatever design software you plan to use, then find a makerspace (even our libraries in NY have lasers now) no matter how far away it is, where you can engrave a few. Then go out and buy a used laser and use that until you can start making a profit. Once you have proved to yourself that this can be a viable business, then you can buy a sleek new machine for $20K+...….and if it doesn't work out, then you should be able to resell that used laser on Ebay and walk away without too much of a loss......or you can keep it and start making tchotchkes...

Good luck!

[Kev Williams]

I just noticed the '6 figures' thing...

Just to GROSS $100k in a year you have generate sales of $274 per day, EVERY DAY of the year. Should you want your weekends off, that figure jumps to $383 per day...
-now start factoring in CODB...

>edit> -- Engraving stocks without an FFL-- legal ONLY if the stock is divorced from the receiver. This according to the ATF agent who presented me with my C&D order...

[Daniel Perry]

Rabbit Laser has good quality Co2 lasers with great support and reasonable prices. I've had mine for going on 5 years I think and its still working great, Knock wood a 60 or 80 watt 6040 would be a good machine to start with. Its big enough to do a lot of stuff on and will last a long time if you take care of it. Give Ray Scott a call at Rabbit Laser USA and ask him about machines. I think he might even have some fibers in stock now. not sure on that but check.

Thanks for the input!

[Daniel Perry]

Thank you for the very real reply! I've spoken with a few gunsmiths and gun shops, but I could certainly visit more! So far, they all seem interested, which is much more than expected. While I wasn't expecting to make 6+ figures quickly, I was hoping it wouldn't take a decade to reach.

I've got a lot of firearms and other things to hone my skills, but asking for broken parts is a great idea! Thanks for that!

Mistakes, something I think about daily... I thought about setting a 'limit' to what I'd be willing to engrave (ie not that 1864 you mentioned). But, limiting myself can limit my customer base as well... constant battle in my head. Hoping insurance can help with those realllly big screw ups. I can take a Glock 17 mishap on the chin, not a M1-Garand. With so many different finishes on firearms, I've also thought about sticking to certain finishes, as I start off. Getting into bluing and such, is something I'm also researching.

Practice, the one thing I know I'll do a LOT of, before taking a single non-personal firearm into the machine. I'm a bit OCD about my art, so I'm sure this will be a while, haha.

I've been looking into CNC machines as well! While I think I'll get one eventually, sticking to the 'flat' parts may be my step 1.

[Daniel Perry]

I just noticed the '6 figures' thing...

Just to GROSS $100k in a year you have generate sales of $274 per day, EVERY DAY of the year. Should you want your weekends off, that figure jumps to $383 per day...
-now start factoring in CODB...

>edit> -- Engraving stocks without an FFL-- legal ONLY if the stock is divorced from the receiver. This according to the ATF agent who presented me with my C&D order...

Yeah, the math on what I'll have to clear, scares me. How big of a shop would I need to be able to make close to what I make now? Seems unlikely for years to come... but maybe one day?
I don't plan to do this without an FFL, just from all the stories I've heard. Not to mention wanting to do things like slides, etc. which all have SN stamps.

[Daniel Perry]

Good luck!

Messed up my reply, that long one was to you Thank you!!

[Tony South]

I bought mine from engraving machines plus in Florida.
Take a look. https://salelasers.com
Galvo will give you about 12x 12 inches
engravings area max and you can fit a large gun or whatever under it and you aren’t confined to a small box. Chinese lasers are good machines. US machines are better but way more expensive like you know. You can buy a power supply and a scan head with mirrors off of eBay. But you’d have to know how to install it. The main problem with buying from China is the after purchase support. You will probably get a laser that will work good but if something breaks or you need help with a certain material they may or may not help you. You could purchase a Chinese laser from a US dealer and have support and knowledge. The link I posted above is a company in Texas that sells a Chinese machine that they train you on specifically on firearms. It’s a bit more than buying direct from China but it gives you some support if you need it. Or just buy a Trotec open desktop machine and pay a lot.

[Daniel Perry]

I bought mine from engraving machines plus in Florida.
Take a look. https://salelasers.com
Galvo will give you about 12x 12 inches ... The link I posted above is a company in Texas that sells a Chinese machine that they train you on specifically on firearms. It’s a bit more than buying direct from China but it gives you some support if you need it. Or just buy a Trotec open desktop machine and pay a lot.

I love the idea of getting training in the exact market I want to target, but I'm not so sure on the laser itself. I really wish there weren't so many options, haha!

[Gary Hair]

Yeah, the math on what I'll have to clear, scares me. How big of a shop would I need to be able to make close to what I make now? Seems unlikely for years to come... but maybe one day?
I don't plan to do this without an FFL, just from all the stories I've heard. Not to mention wanting to do things like slides, etc. which all have SN stamps.

How much revenue you generate depends solely on your market. My first couple of years in business I had a hard time grossing over $50k with laser and dye sublimation. One of my best years with one co2 and one fiber and doing sandcarving, I grossed almost 10 times that much. Realistically and sustainably, I can gross $250k with one c02 and two fiber machines - by myself and with very little overhead. You just need to find the right niche and become the "go-to" person in that area.

edit: just to give you an idea of the power of creating the right business, I just googled "laser engraving" in my previous state and I still come up first in the list - and I haven't been there in over a year!! You can't do that overnight, but if/when you do, you'll be extremely happy!

[Daniel Perry]

...You just need to find the right niche and become the "go-to" person in that area.

While firearms and the like, are what I'd really love to be in, I know and am willing to change that, based on clients. Thanks so much for the input and even giving me some numbers, on what you've been able to gross. Those are some impressive numbers! I won't dare dream of such numbers, for a long time to come, haha.

SEO and other website investments will be huge, for me. I'm hoping that my work (assuming I'll be good) will set me apart from any competitors that are around.

[Daniel Perry]

Thank you everyone for all of the information! I also spent a couple hours on the phone with Epilog and Trotec, today.
Sounds like I'm going to go in one of three different directions:
1. Buy a dual head machine (fiber and CO2)
2. Buy two separate machines (fiber and CO2)
3. Buy CO2 now, and then add a fiber machine, later down the road. (this is my top choice right now)

I know that #3 means that I won't be able to get into engraving on the metal parts, but this also means that I can 'break into the industry' without breaking my bank, too harshly, too quickly. Which, in turn will also allow me to get into #2, down the road, which means I have two machines running, at one time, and can do almost everything I have planned. While #1 will save me the most money in the long run, it means I'll have two machines that I can only use 1 of, at a time. Though, being able to do one job with one machine, does sound nice (knife with wood handle).

So, I'd like to direct my questioning to Epilog vs Trotec. Is it really just preference? For some reason, I keep looking at Epilogs, and they seemed the most willing to spend time on the phone with me (spent over 2 hours on the phone with them today). But, Trotec has some really great machines too! Figuring out which direction to go, seems like splitting hairs. Do I just choose one and live with that choice?

[Gary Hair]

SEO and other website investments will be huge, for me. I'm hoping that my work (assuming I'll be good) will set me apart from any competitors that are around.

Don't bother with a fancy website and SEO. I traded engraving for my website and it looked pretty nice and was very flexible for adding pictures, but I spent zero $ on SEO. Your best bet to do firearm work is to get to know your local firearm groups, vendors, distributors, gunsmiths, etc. I had three customers that were outside 50 miles of my shop, the rest were local. Regardless of how much you spend on your website and SEO, there are too many others doing the same thing and you'll never get to a point where you are "the one" to go to online. You can, however, do that locally if you do great work at a reasonable (not cheap) price and offer the best service. Check out your local competition and find their weaknesses and make them your strengths. When I did this I found that my competitors were quick to say no to a difficult job or something they hadn't tried before - I made it my goal to say no very seldom and become proficient enough with my equipment that there was virtually nothing I couldn't do. It got to a point where the other shops would refer jobs to me that they weren't willing or able to do because they knew I could get it done.

[Gary Hair]

If you want to ever do metal engraving then don't go with a co2/fiber combo. A gantry fiber simply will not deep engrave metal in any kind of timeframe that will make you any money. If you want to engrave metal then you could start with the fiber and add co2 later. Granted, the fiber will limit the "other" materials you can mark vs co2, but if metal is your primary focus then it's your only choice.