Setting up a new woodworking shop - have some questions

[Mike Cutler]

Your machines will run more efficiently and it will save you money.

Nick

I'm sorry, but I have disagree with this statement, as it applies to real world application. In a lab, and on paper, it has merit. To actually quantify the difference is so small, that it wouldn't be apparent to a user.
Motor efficiency is motor efficiency, it doesn't change with voltage. The amount of power required for a motor to perform a given task is equal regardless of voltage. As are the losses. It's just how it flows, that makes the difference. Add the current in both legs of 240 motor,and it will equal the same current in the single leg of a 120vac powered motor, all things being equal, for a given task. Power is power.
A motor running on 120vac, versus 240 vac, will require the same amount of power in watts, for the same given task.

The most compelling argument for wiring a shop for 240vac, is that it will facilitate future growth. 120vac powered motors stop at 2 HP, generally. 3 HP and up will require 240. As a person keeps up with this craft, they will naturally gravitate toward bigger, more powerful, pieces of equipment. A dust collector being principle.

Once again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the cost to rewire a shop for 240vac would never be realized back in the theoretical efficiency difference between a 120vac, versus, 240vac, motor.

[Nick Lazz]

Nick

I'm sorry, but I have disagree with this statement, as it applies to real world application. In a lab, and on paper, it has merit. To actually quantify the difference is so small, that it wouldn't be apparent to a user.
Motor efficiency is motor efficiency, it doesn't change with voltage. The amount of power required for a motor to perform a given task is equal regardless of voltage. As are the losses. It's just how it flows, that makes the difference. Add the current in both legs of 240 motor,and it will equal the same current in the single leg of a 120vac powered motor, all things being equal, for a given task. Power is power.
A motor running on 120vac, versus 240 vac, will require the same amount of power in watts, for the same given task.

The most compelling argument for wiring a shop for 240vac, is that it will facilitate future growth. 120vac powered motors stop at 2 HP, generally. 3 HP and up will require 240. As a person keeps up with this craft, they will naturally gravitate toward bigger, more powerful, pieces of equipment. A dust collector being principle.

Once again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the cost to rewire a shop for 240vac would never be realized back in the theoretical efficiency difference between a 120vac, versus, 240vac, motor.

No offense taken, it's a good discussion. Maybe my point was missed or I used the wrong words. You will draw less amps using 240 vs 120. This makes operating them more efficent, not the motor. However, It will come up to speed faster and maintain it's power better using 240v. This would be noticed when ripping 8/4 hardwood but not necessarily with smaller dimensional materials.
Here is an example I found that explains it a little better than I did:

With 240V, you will have a little more torque, and it will come up to speed a bit faster, but the biggest advantage is less line loss and voltage drop. A motor running at 240V will consume half of the amps that it will draw while running on 120V. We pay for electricity by the kilowatt hour (KW/hr.) so if we consider a motor that draws 16A on120V, this is 1920 watts. (Volts x amps = watts). The same motor on 240V draws 8 amps, for the same total of 1920 watts (neglecting power factor, a little more technical than we are going to get here). However, the difference is in line drop (volts lost) and line loss (power lost) in the conductors.This motor running at 120V will have twice the amount of line drop (amps x resistance of the wire = volts) because it is drawing twice the current, and it will experience four times the line loss (power in watts), because amps(2) x resistance of the wire = watts. This is wasted power that is lost in the form of heat. The longer the wire, the more significant these losses become.

I'm not suggesting rewiring the shop, and I apologize for siderailing the thread, but I maintain running your larger tools 240 vs 120 is still better.

[Marcus Waddell]

No offense taken, it's a good discussion. Maybe my point was missed or I used the wrong words. You will draw less amps using 240 vs 120. This makes operating them more efficent, not the motor. However, It will come up to speed faster and maintain it's power better using 240v. This would be noticed when ripping 8/4 hardwood but not necessarily with smaller dimensional materials.
Here is an example I found that explains it a little better than I did:

With 240V, you will have a little more torque, and it will come up to speed a bit faster, but the biggest advantage is less line loss and voltage drop. A motor running at 240V will consume half of the amps that it will draw while running on 120V. We pay for electricity by the kilowatt hour (KW/hr.) so if we consider a motor that draws 16A on120V, this is 1920 watts. (Volts x amps = watts). The same motor on 240V draws 8 amps, for the same total of 1920 watts (neglecting power factor, a little more technical than we are going to get here). However, the difference is in line drop (volts lost) and line loss (power lost) in the conductors.This motor running at 120V will have twice the amount of line drop (amps x resistance of the wire = volts) because it is drawing twice the current, and it will experience four times the line loss (power in watts), because amps(2) x resistance of the wire = watts. This is wasted power that is lost in the form of heat. The longer the wire, the more significant these losses become.

I'm not suggesting rewiring the shop, and I apologize for siderailing the thread, but I maintain running your larger tools 240 vs 120 is still better.

Since I have to wire my shop up in the first place, I'll consider adding 240VAC to the mix. Thanks for the input y'all.

[Peter Christensen]

Working in a woodshop without a dust monitor is going to shorten the life of your lungs. Spend $200 on a Dylos DC1100 Standard Laser Air Quality Monitor

Or for about $50US you can get one about the size of a pack of smokes that does the same except for recording the data to export later. Or get both.

https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from...nitor&_sacat=0

[Mike Kees]

Marcus just curious,does the contractor saw have a Unifence on it now ? It is a tough thing to put together a decent shop. If one buys only the machines they want to keep forever it is impossible to afford. At the same time real cheap stuff is junk,finding a happy medium is the trick. I would use the bandsaw and drill press from your dad. You have a tablesaw. My advice would be to buy a planer now and wait for a used 8'' jointer. The reason is a six inch will only satisfy you for a couple years and then you will outgrow it.You already have a great start with the stuff from your dad. Also I used a router table for years that I built,without a lift. They still work real well ,just not as easy to adjust. good luck ,Mike.

[Frank Pratt]

No offense taken, it's a good discussion. Maybe my point was missed or I used the wrong words. You will draw less amps using 240 vs 120. This makes operating them more efficent, not the motor. However, It will come up to speed faster and maintain it's power better using 240v. This would be noticed when ripping 8/4 hardwood but not necessarily with smaller dimensional materials.
Here is an example I found that explains it a little better than I did:

With 240V, you will have a little more torque, and it will come up to speed a bit faster, but the biggest advantage is less line loss and voltage drop. A motor running at 240V will consume half of the amps that it will draw while running on 120V. We pay for electricity by the kilowatt hour (KW/hr.) so if we consider a motor that draws 16A on120V, this is 1920 watts. (Volts x amps = watts). The same motor on 240V draws 8 amps, for the same total of 1920 watts (neglecting power factor, a little more technical than we are going to get here). However, the difference is in line drop (volts lost) and line loss (power lost) in the conductors.This motor running at 120V will have twice the amount of line drop (amps x resistance of the wire = volts) because it is drawing twice the current, and it will experience four times the line loss (power in watts), because amps(2) x resistance of the wire = watts. This is wasted power that is lost in the form of heat. The longer the wire, the more significant these losses become.

I'm not suggesting rewiring the shop, and I apologize for siderailing the thread, but I maintain running your larger tools 240 vs 120 is still better.

Sorry Nick, I'm going to have to join Mike in ganging up on you here. There is no difference in efficiency or power usage whether you are operating a machine at 120V or 240V. The motor will have exactly the same torque & come up to speed the same with either voltage. This is providing the outlet is wired to code.

The only time 240V will give you an advantage is if the load is a long way from the panel. Then 240V will have less issues with voltage drop & you won't have to increase wire size as much as you would with 120V.

Again, assuming the circuit is installed per code, increased power losses associated with running 120V vs 240V are barely measurable & wouldn't amount to more that pennies per year. Of course I'm talking home hobby shop & not a commercial shop with 100s of feet to the panel.

After saying all that, I too run all my machines over 1 HP that I can on 240V. But that's just because I like it that way.

[Jim Becker]

There have been a few saws over the years that were dual voltage where the 240v configuration had windings adjusted to provide slightly higher horsepower at the higher voltage, but that was by design. Unless a machine has a specific setup like that, what Frank says is absolutely true...there is no advantage on these small motors to run on the higher voltage other than personal preference.

[Brad Barnhart]

Howdy Mr. Marcus, & welcome to the forum, Sir.

To be very honest with you, I concur with what Mike said in his post.

You have an excellent start on the more expensive tools from your Dad. Pick it up & run with it! Once you've made the decision of how you want your new shop set up, then begin your tool fancification.

When my bride & I started puttin' our meager little shop together 25 years ago, we purchased our bigger tools used from a contractor's estate. They had been SEVERELY abused. We spent several hours workin' on them to get them up to a useable state while learnin' how to use them, and what they were used for. But, all those hours of work and cleaning paid off. Bein' an ol' OTR truck driver my whole life, I had NEVER been around such tools, nor had use for them.

We are just now beginnin' to replace them saws. And I'm guessin' they are in upwards of 30 years old. And we didn't make all them fancy updates to a nary one of them, either.

I do agree with what has been mentioned about dust control. Every shop, if at all possible, should have the best dust control possible.

As far as the fence for your router, imo, it's not overkill, but pricey. I think the question I would ask myself were I in your boots would be "what is more useful to the shop? A bandsaw, better fence for the table saw, or?"

To be honest, fwiw, I would bypass the track saw and if it is such a necessity in your shop, create your own and put those extra dollar bills towards new wiring or something else. I have, personally, never seen the use for the track saw.

As also mentioned, once ya start building your relationship with your individual tools, you will, in time, figure out what other complimentary tools you'll need to improve the working tools you now have.

Nearly all of our tools have some years on them, but trust me, they all run, work and look as close to new as possible, and are kept in that condition. If you look after your tools, and take care of them, they will look after you and all your needs.

Best of luck to you, Sir!

[Van Huskey]

By the way #6 Grizzly makes just the thing a 12” disc sander and spindle sander combo. Metal is better than plastic that the bench top ones are made of.

One thing to be aware of is the G0529 has a polyurethane helical gear on the spindle sander, which is part of the reason it is inexpensive. To use a proper metal gear you need to have an oil bath which is what all the better spindle sanders have. Just something to be aware of.


To the OP, while you have gotten lots of good advice a way to get more is break up the questions into individual threads, they are free you know. Given this is still the internet people often avoid threads where it takes a book to even begin to answer all the individual questions. Also, try to give some realistic budgets. For example, bandsaw threads are why I wake up in the morning and when I see mid-level bandsaw I think $2-3K if bought new. Looking at the rest of the post we may not see that the same way.

I am also in the 240v makes no tangible difference over 120v on dual voltage motors unless it is an oddball that the high voltage wiring is designed to produce more hp. However, having a shop wired with plenty of 240v circuits is a no-brainer if feasible since 120v is limited to roughly 1.75hp on induction motors.

[Dennis McCullen]

If I missed something, I pre-apologize, but I did not see more than a very inexpensive table saw that you will get from your dad. Some replies listed "tools from your dad" (plural). Consider it worth $100-150 and compare that to the cost of your wish list. In my opinion, you have a weak start. It is good for cutting but not for dust collection. If space is unlimited ( I don't see that all-important parameter mentioned), keep it around set up for dadoes. I'll offer some alternative ideas; not what I did but what I'd if I were starting now with the experience I have. Not in your order of ?? but here's my opinion/ ramblings.

A The table saw (T.S.) is at the heart of every woodworking shop with the exception of extreme Neanderthal (hand tools only). All the "goodies' you list are good goals, but at the root of a shop is a good T.S. with very good dust collection. Start with a good cabinet saw and a good enough dust collector D.C. (Harbor Freight). Build a good trash can separator for the D.C. Now you have a heart!

B. The DeWalt planer you've picked is an excellent choice and IMO, a planer is necessary.

C. Jointing can be done in a variety of ways including but not limited to a sled on a table saw with a very good blade (even a glue line blade), or with a router free-handed with an excellent straight edge. I have a neighbor that built furniture and used a large 3hp router with sheet metal straight edges clamped to the wood for jointing instead of a good jointer he had sitting in the shop.

D. Always consider your available space and think of putting all big tools on mobile bases but buy as few stationary tools as necessary starting out. Your path will designate the order to buy them.

E. I agree with others that a band saw (I wish I had a 17" min.) is a great tool, but will you be working in hardwood and veneers? I see more interest in "sheet goods" and the mention of cabinetry rather than fine solid hardwood furniture. Decent 14" band saws are available used particularly from the guys upgrading. If you will only be cutting curves for a while, settle on less. You can recoup most of this investment if/when you find the need for the 17" band saw. There's a LOT that can be done on a good band saw.

F. A router table - Not hard to build. I came across a "like new" one (actually never used) with a Triton router that is adjustable from above the table. No need for a separate lift, just a small hole in the router mounting plate. Routers are a bit like clamps and it's hard to have too many. I built my home and all the cabinetry with a 1980s Craftsman radial arm saw and table saw; after buying a table for my first router, I quickly bought another router just like the first one. Without all the mass of a large stationary tool, routers are relatively inexpensive and very versatile. In addition to the one assigned to the table, get a router kit with fixed and plunge bases and make sure it comes with a straight edge guide and all the bushings. As you progress and advance, you'll probably buy a compact router also. The one for the table should be 2-1/4 hp or greater.

G. Track saw - the pros love 'em, particularly those on the go. If you cannot cut a straight line with a good straight edge clamped to a workpiece, excuse me but you need practice! I strongly suggest you consider the set up of the cut. I use four identical saw horses and take special care they are level. You never want your off cut to be at a greater elevation or the saw will catch and kick back. Your reach is important and relative to the height of the sawhorses; you need stability in your stance and relative comfort. Furthermore, consider that breaking down sheet goods is the first cut and the second cut of smaller ply is on the table saw with a great set up of infeed and outfeed support. How many sheets can you spare an extra 1/4" of material from to perfect the edge cut before you buy that track saw. Folks on the go love 'em - because they do not have that large table saw handy. I'd simply move that one further down the wish list. Build a good assembly/outfeed table to go behind the table saw; it will be great for practice and make sure the finished height is about 1/8" less than the table saw.

H. Spindle/ disk sander - I bought a used one and found the Harbor Freight one to be the same unit wearing other badges. Since I have it on a shelf, I use my drum sanders in my drill press for quick jobs and get out the spindle sander for larger curved sanding. Again, consider how much curved work will be done and use fine-toothed blades on the bandsaw to reduce how much sanding is needed. Bandsaw dust collection has been considered in recent years of manufacturing - keep that in mind if you buy a used one since fine-toothed blades produce fine dust.

I. Incidentals, blades and bits. One can spend a lot of money here. I have bought router bit sets with very good reputations, but are imports - do your research or buy the really good domestic ones as needed. I bought a few domestic and expensive bits for jobs that I knew demanded a lot of use. I'm a long way from woodworking retail and do not like to wait for shipping when I'm into a project. So your disposition and location may govern where you end up in all of this. Buy good blades and take the time to switch out for a rip blade, a fine crosscut, or a combination blade when you can get away with it. Investigate hold downs and featherboards - what you can make and what you should buy. Consider making things for the shop as practice and always go through a check up on the accuracy of the tool you are about to use and the effectiveness of the set up. BTW, I leave good quality ear muffs hanging in the two main areas of my shop where they are not more than a few steps away. Safety First!

J. Last of my random thoughts - As important as dust collection is for keeping a clean and safe shop, it is a freakin' nightmare in practical application. Be patient, willing to improvise, and even keep notebook on your varying designs. I have a variety of vacuum cleaner hoses (2 shop vacs) and some smaller hose left from a house vac, in addition to some pool pump hose. Different hand sanders require different set ups and it's nice not to re-create something you used a couple months ago. Just refer to your notes about how hose A connects to hose B to a 2-1/2" shop vac for this random orbital sander.


Opinions vary greatly on what tools to invest in, but I would start with a dust-collection friendly table saw, a couple routers, a planer, and get some practice with those to find your direction.

[Kelby Van Patten]

Lots of good advice already. I'll add:

1. I think you are underestimating the value and importance of good dust collection. Apart from the health issues (which are very real), having a dust-free shop will make you want to be in the shop more because it will be more enjoyable. No vacuum -- even a festool -- can provide the airflow you need for your tablesaw, planer, jointer, and bandsaw. At a minimum, get the Harbor Freight with a cyclone separator and run 6" ductwork (not just spiral hose) to the tools. Use the static pressure calculator on Bill Pentz's website to help you design the most efficient system you can. The Harbor Freight's airflow at the tool will be far less than Pentz's calculator will recommend, but the calculator will help you get the most you can from the Harbor Freight, and it will be far better than the vacuum will provide. Bill Pentz's site has lots of great information.

2. If you can make the dollars work, skip the tracksaw and the Incra TS-LS 32, sell the Delta contractor saw, and with that money and a few dollars more, you should be able to find a used Unisaw and couple it with a Bissemeyer fence. Then look at some of the many good articles out there on modding the old Unisaw for good dust collection. A Unisaw with a Bissemeyer will be far more useful to you than the contractor saw/tracksaw combination. (If you can swing the money for a Sawstop cabinet saw, that would be even better, but that's probably beyond your budget.) A good tablesaw setup is the most important tool in the shop, by far.

3. On a jointer: Jointers are very useful. Yes, you can finagle your planer and tablesaw to give you a similar result, but it's a pain in the neck. You can find a used 6" jointer very cheap and it will prove a great addition to your shop. If you are just making cabinets for now, then a 6" jointer is just fine. When you start needing to face joint boards wider than 6", then look at an upgrade to a bigger jointer. But for now, a used 6" jointer (you can find them for a few hundred dollars) would be a very useful tool.

4. If you are wiring your shop now, then wiring for 240 is a no-brainer. The tools you are looking at now will generally run on 110 and will be just fine on 110, but if you stick with woodworking, you will want to upgrade to bigger tools later, and the bigger tools will require 240V.

[Gregory King]

Ahh! The old 120v versus 240V debate. When I built my shop, the electrician upgraded the house first to 200amp from 100amp. Then he installed the 100 amp panel in the shop with a 60 amp breaker. So items on 240 cuts the amperage in half obviously. Seldom do I have more than two items running at the same time. The table saw is still wired to 120 and dims the lights slightly when starting. No good reason to not upgrade to 240 other than laziness. I have had the jointer and thickness planer on at the same time. Never a problem. Just have to keep in mind you have a total of 60 amps to work with. Hope this helps a tad.

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

Welcome to the forum...I am only a few years in on the hobby, so I understand your quandary.

You are getting a lot of good advice. I will add mine as newbe.

I built a router table (Norm's) an added a lift--definitely worth it.

I started with a shop vac and went to the HF DC with a cannister filter and trash can separator...big improvement.

I also started with a contractor saw that I tried adding all sorts of bells and whistles on to make it great--built it into a table, tried an auxiliary fence, etc . It was okay and I did good work with it. When I got a cabinet saw in 2014 (sawstop), it was a gamechanger for me. My advice is that you focus on getting a good quality cabinet saw before anything else. I am still using the stock fence that came with the sawstop. Occasionally, I would like the adjustability and precision of an Incra, but it would be a small incremental step...there are several other areas I would get a bigger improvement for my $ (or at least I think)

I use an inexpensive track saw to break down sheet goods to rough size and then finish on the table saw. I drool over a more expensive track saw, but as an amateur, the cheap track saw is often good enough.

As for the planner, I just got my 6" PM planner in August and I am still in the honeymoon period with it.

[Jim Becker]

So items on 240 cuts the amperage in half obviously.

The same amps are spread over two conductors...

[Robert Engel]

Nick,

Watts are watts so you don't use less electricity. I think there might be some merit in thinking a motor has a longer life running at 220V. I got this impression when we switched our well pump to 240V.

Marcus,

The best advice I can give you starting out is focus on building skills, not projects. Chose projects that will help you develop skills. And even more important, you will quickly get frustrated and discouraged trying to build skills with cheap inferior tools. So buy the best tools you can afford and watch lots of videos.

The DC setup your describing will be OK for collecting a router, miter saw, etc, but not a table saw, bandsaw, etc. Not enough CFM's.

My suggestion to you is to spend some time on due diligence. Stay away from the consumer type saws you see in the big box stores. Focus on machines that have a true induction motor. Read some review by reputable sources like FineWoodworking, Popular WW'ing, etc.

Ballpark, you're could easily be looking at $10-12,000 worth of machines depending on brand, type etc. All the major brands will do the job it simply depends on the budget.

Ultimately you're going to have to make your own decisions based on your needs, your budge, and your research.

Here is my suggestions based on 30 years experience:

The first key machine is a table saw. The fence is the key. Step 1 is to go through the saw thoroughly, checking all the alignments, the belts, lubrication, and blowing out the motor with compressed air. That Delta saw will probably do the job for you. I have both a 3HP and 1 3/4 HP tablesaw. The latter can hand full kerf blades no problem (sharp ones!!). At some point you will probably want to move up.

Definitely need a riving knife. Check out MicroJig.

Step 2 is focus on hand tools and hand tool skills. A quick tool list would include #4 plane, block plane, chisel set, saw set, measuring, marking and last but not least, sharpening. Buy the best tools you can afford. Once again, lots and lots of research on brands, techniques, etc.

Bench: you need a table saw and some hand tools to build a bench ;-).

Track saw: An inexpensive saw guide will do the job of a track saw. Use that money for hand tools!

Router table: Build your own fence. Router lifts are nice, but some brands like Triton have built in lifts.