Educate me on Shapers

[brent stanley]

I think Mike summed it up pretty well.

IMO shapers are intended for production shops. Power feeders are a must (minimum that's a $700 item -- try finding a used one!!) Cutters are more expensive. Machines take up space. Dust collection is an issue to address.

So with 2 (yes 2) routers, what will a shaper do that you can't already do?

Or do you have that disease "see the tool, buy the tool, find out you don't need the tool," LOL

Typically a shaper will make nice shavings that are easier to collect and by default a LOT less nasty dust. It also produces a much nicer finish, and with a replaceable knife euroblock is much cheaper than decent quality router bits. If you get into rail and stile work, you can often get both cope and stick cutters on one knife which makes it much cheaper than router bits.

A block like the Whitehill combi head gives you the most commonly used head (rebate block) along with the second most commonly used head (euroblock limiter head) in one head for significant cost savings.

I never use my router table anymore, and I'm not a production shop.

B

[David Kumm]

Think about larger bites out of hardwood using a 1/2" spindle supported by a small collet, and small bearings placed fairly close together vs a 1.25 or 30mm spindle with an even larger taper, much larger bearings spaced much farther apart and run by an induction motor. I'm a hobby guy and don't even like small panel cutters on a router let alone profiling passage doors even 1" rail and stile cabinet stock. A shaper allows the hobby guy to use profiles that are unusual, more complicated, and have more depth and width than is commonly found even on commercial work. It can set your work apart from the herd. Dave

[Mark Bolton]

The old school ludites will argue a feeder isnt necessary and lament of the days of old when men with hairy chests fed all sorts of things safely manually (which we all do to this day when needed) but the simple fact of the matter is if your contemplating a shaper and are not factoring in a feeder in that expense you are wasting your time. A shaper in any shop is mainly advantageous with regards to a feeder. Operator fatigue, cut quality, tooling life, increased throughput. We all hand feed coping, template work, and so on, but a shaper really comes to light in a small shops mind when you start running parts with a feeder and your physical exertion goes down by a factor of 40, your worry, your anxiety when you see an 8" cutter whip up to speed.

The shaper itself will be dwarfed in expense and learning curve in comparison to the feeder and the tooling. A shaper is a just a motor and a spindle. Basically a table saw. The nuance is in the toolding, feeder, fencing, and so on. A comatic DC40 feeder will easily be twice as much as an import shaper new. Tooling will dwarf the cost of the shaper in short order, euroblock or otherwise. That said, the end result will be miles away from a router table. Whether or not you need that is a question only you can answer.

If your are someone who simply needs to acquire tools regardless of their advantage to your workflow, then I can only appreciate your bank account and its ability to throw money at a tool that doesnt give you direct benefit. We dont buy tools that dont have a direct impact on our profitability just because we saw the tool on a TV program or some young tike challenged our "tool status" because we dont have one.

Do your math, and let the spread sheet tell you if its a profitable investment.

[Cary Falk]

I don't have much more to add that hasn't already been said. I say don't skimp on the fence. I bought a Grizzly shaper(based on cost) first and hated a fence. I ended up upgrading to a Laguna Pro shaper to get a better fence and it makes a world of difference.

[Mike Cutler]

Hi Chris, don't be too discouraged by the cost of tooling. If you're not anticipating huge production runs, a euroblock that accepts cheap replaceable knives can quickly be cheaper than the equivalent good quality router bits. Shapers are far more versatile and suited to small shops than many realize. I did a little video series on shapers for small shops... https://youtu.be/mylYGzZC2yU

B

I didn't know that was you Brent?? Cool!
That's a nice series you put together. It's very well done.

Mike

[brent stanley]

I didn't know that was you Brent?? Cool!
That's a nice series you put together. It's very well done.

Mike

Thanks Mike! I'm a little insecure about my videos, but am trying to get better especially with my big timberframing build coming up that I hope to video document as well. I have a HSS panel raiser video in the editing stream as well I hope to get out soon.

B

[Mike Cutler]

I think Mike summed it up pretty well.

IMO shapers are intended for production shops. Power feeders are a must (minimum that's a $700 item -- try finding a used one!!) Cutters are more expensive. Machines take up space. Dust collection is an issue to address.

So with 2 (yes 2) routers, what will a shaper do that you can't already do?

Or do you have that disease "see the tool, buy the tool, find out you don't need the tool," LOL

Robert

I think a shaper has a valid use in the hobbiest shop. It's just that a person has to keep things in perspective as to equipment selection.
I admire some of the machinery, shapers, I've seen here through the years, but it's just not practical, money wise, for a guy in his garage shop.

You are right though, power feeders by themselves do not come up for sale often on Craigslist, but there are a ton of them sold connected to a shaper. I was pretty close to buying a used shaper, with a power feeder, just to get the power feeder, when I found the one I bought in early December.
I know some folks don't like to buy used equipment, and I get that, but the money saved can just be incredible. One seller near me was selling two Powermatic 26's with feeders, fences, and cutters, for less than the cost of a new shaper alone. I see this all over the northeast.

I don't use mine a lot, or at least not as much these days, but I personally would not want to go back to the limitations of a router mounted in a table. Each person is different in their individual needs though

[Joe Jensen]

I think Mike summed it up pretty well.

IMO shapers are intended for production shops. Power feeders are a must (minimum that's a $700 item -- try finding a used one!!) Cutters are more expensive. Machines take up space. Dust collection is an issue to address.

So with 2 (yes 2) routers, what will a shaper do that you can't already do?

Or do you have that disease "see the tool, buy the tool, find out you don't need the tool," LOL

It's unlikely you would make that comment if you've used a shaper with a power feeder. I climb cut nearly everything and as a result the cut is amazing. Never any burning, and the cut is so smooth an consistent is needs barely any sanding. Yes its more of an investment but it's not just for production shops.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Thanks for all the replies, I've been looking on Craigslist and eBay to see what is available generally. Seems there's plenty of good used machines, especially some with feeders, but the majority are 3 phase.

I'm trying to educate myself on VFD's and RPC's to see what it takes to convert my single phase to 3 phase so I can open myself to the possibility of getting a very good used Shaper. I started a thread over in the workshops sub-forum and did a search, but I haven't found something that just addresses the requirements in lay mans terms..

The prior owner of my house was an electrician and I think he set up my external garage with two 100A sub panels, one of which has next to nothing in it currently.

I agree with many of the comments about "Do I really need this type of machine, just being a hobbyist", but I now have many machines that I never dreamed of owning 3 years ago, and use most of them frequently pursuing my hobby.

Again, thank you for all your comments and opinions.

[brent stanley]

Thanks for all the replies, I've been looking on Craigslist and eBay to see what is available generally. Seems there's plenty of good used machines, especially some with feeders, but the majority are 3 phase.

I'm trying to educate myself on VFD's and RPC's to see what it takes to convert my single phase to 3 phase so I can open myself to the possibility of getting a very good used Shaper. I started a thread over in the workshops sub-forum and did a search, but I haven't found something that just addresses the requirements in lay mans terms..

The prior owner of my house was an electrician and I think he set up my external garage with two 100A sub panels, one of which has next to nothing in it currently.

I agree with many of the comments about "Do I really need this type of machine, just being a hobbyist", but I now have many machines that I never dreamed of owning 3 years ago, and use most of them frequently pursuing my hobby.

Again, thank you for all your comments and opinions.

In my opinion you're on the right track looking for a 3 phase machine to mate with a vfd. It'll probably be cheaper to buy and with a vfd you'll have reverse, infinite speed control and motor braking....all great features on a shaper.

A vfd will typically be one machine per vfd (more advanced scenarios are possible but they require additional considerations) and as long as the motor you're trying to run isn't 480v or 600v, hooking up to a vfd ought not be terribly complicated.

[Martin Wasner]

IMO shapers are intended for production shops.

Plural shapers, yes, that is a production orientated approach. I think the minimum to crank product is three.

A single shaper is meant for the guy not really trying to get anything done and doesn't need to.

[Mike Cutler]

Plural shapers, yes, that is a production orientated approach. I think the minimum to crank product is three.

A single shaper is meant for the guy not really trying to get anything done and doesn't need to.

Hmmmm,,,,, maybe I can work this around to my advantage. I can tell my wife, Martin says the reason I can't get anything done, is because I need a second shaper.
I don't think I can get three this way though.
It still amazed me to watch you make a door in 15 minutes.

[Van Huskey]

Hmmmm,,,,, maybe I can work this around to my advantage. I can tell my wife, Martin says the reason I can't get anything done, is because I need a second shaper.
I don't think I can get three this way though.
It still amazed me to watch you make a door in 15 minutes.

'Bought 16 minutes and 15 seconds.

I keep wondering how fast 10-20 of the same size door would take. I am betting he would average under 13 minutes per. My favorite part of the video is the ROS use, it is more like I use a ROS than the "proper" I have a week to finish the sanding on my honey-do table FWW magazine way.

I would like to have a second or third shaper but I really don't have the room and if push came to shove I would rather put all the money into one better shaper. Don't get me wrong I don't like the extra setup time but I do so little with each setup even 3 wouldn't keep me from setting up most times I use them. I do think hard every time I see a nice old iron shaper with no fence that sells for near nothing that I would love to have one to leave setup with a Byrd head for pattern cutting. It doesn't need to have any modern fancy controls and could be left with a completely open table and I wouldn't have to worry about taking the table off and putting it back on.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have the experience of a home home shop with one shaper and a workshop where I make a living with three.

We could use a fourth shaper at work to be perfect honest. The guys dont agree but the guys also don’t care of the boss is making money or not, they also have been in a shop their whole lives and are not really concerned with safety. We could use maybe even a fifth shaper to be perfectly honest. In a production environment and we are not a production environment with only two people building full time the ability to setup two profiles is of great value. As is having a dedicated panel raising setup and in our case a machine setup for lock miters as we miter wrap all of our face frames to end panels. Point is right now with three shapers we get by just fine but it does slow us down a bit at times and or requires planning of workflow.

My bench mate who has been building and is cheap cheap cheap cheap would be fine with a router table and hand feeding everything. You really don’t need much to cope and stick a cabinet door, a million ways to skin a cat. With that said the result of a shaper vrs router table and a power feeder can’t begin to be compared.

At home I have one shaper and even in a hobby environment it’s a royal pain in the rear end. Break this down to set that on and on and on. Thank god it has digital readout of the spindle somit sat least easy to get back exactly to where you were if you take good notes. High on my list of wants is a second shaper for the home shop.

15 minutes for a door is normal maybe even a bit long if your stock is pre dimensioned.

A power feeder is a must 100%. Not to say I do not hand feed when required as I do “small rails” but yes it’s always tentative and a bit scary. The alternative side is to jig something up that takes forever, normally double sided tape and thin rip of MDF.

Local to me at the moment there is a beautiful 1988 SCMI T110 with bolt on tenon table a power feeder and every single original accessory. The machine looks as new as the day it came off the factory floor. The seller is asking $4200, I bet you could get it for $3800. If I wan not holding out for a Martin with a sliding table and 10-13hp It would already be in my shop.

[Martin Wasner]

At one point I had one shaper. I hated making doors. Especially overlay doors with a raised panel. ugh. One setup for the panel raiser, one setup for sticking, one setup for coping, and another setup for the outside profile. ugh. You get pretty good at it after a while, and there's little tricks to make it faster, but hitting the button on a machine and it's ready to roll, is just too easy.

It wasn't that horrific when I had a bunch of doors to make, but when you had one, because you screwed up. ugh. vomit. barf. rage. I used to drink a lot more.

We have one shaper that has no dedicated use. It just gets setup for whatever so we don't have to tear down a specific setup.


I still have to crack the nut for changing heads for different profiles, and that's starting to tick me off. It's not worth it for me probably, but I'm seriously considering hsk spindles in the automatic coper I want. Swapping spindles will take all of one minute total for both heads with hsk. Tough to justify saving, (ball park guess and probably high), four hundred minutes a year for a $20,000 up charge. If I continue doing this another 15 years, thats 100 hours saved. That's $200/hr. Now, if I double or better my production, it might make more sense.

I used basically two shapers for a very long time. The coper was set up as a coper all the time, I never changed the setup. The other one did EVERYTHING else.


A big one is homogenizing your tooling as much as possible. Anything where you've got the same operation, but a different profile, you want the same major and minor diameters, and the same offsets. Crack the nut, swap heads, tighten up, and roll. No adjustments. I have to swap knives and backers to change panel raising profiles, that drives me nuts too, but for the four or five panel profiles I offer, I can't justify buying another four heads at $700 a pop. At least there's no adjustments to be made other than making sure the edge thickness is correct. Usually the height needs to be bumped a bit one way or another.

There's always room to make an operation better. Real production shops don't use a shaper for much. For us we use shapers mostly for making doors, but we're small time. There's a lot of operations that could be done more than twice as quickly in a moulder. Door sticking takes two passes in a shaper, plus surfacing prior to that point. Going through a moulder turns a 3 step process into a one step process. And the material moves through a moulder significantly faster than a shaper.

An automatic coper is faster than a shaper. Something like a big end matcher takes two people to keep up with, and they're almost idiot proof. The operator lays the part on a conveyor, the machine positions and machines the part. I'm not a big fan of shape and sand machines for panel raising, but I think they are the way to go with a outside profile.


I follow a bunch of shops on Instagram. It's amazing how ineffective some people operate equipment. A while back there was a dude posted a video of him making tongue and groove paneled on a shaper. It took him about 30 seconds to run one full length board. He had no infeed, and no outfeed, plus he had things stacked on the floor. So it took about 15 seconds for the material to pass through the shaper. The rest of the time he was either supporting the piece going in, or supporting it on the way out. Then setting it down, and picking up the next. I made the comment that if he had infeed and outfeed support he could double his productivity, and halve his operating cost. Run them back to back. He was a doing it for a living, but only actually working half the time, the rest of the time the machine was running empty, and the dust collector sucking up nothing. Every second that machine isn't doing it's job, you are consuming and not producing. Get some carts too, you've only got so many bend overs in you, don't waste them picking things up off the floor for no reason. I politely pointed out he could waste less, his response "I'm good" lol, okie dokie kiddo.