Educate me on Shapers

[ChrisA Edwards]

Hi, just out of curiosity, would you be considering a shaper if not for the question your daughter asked you while watching the PBS show?

Has not having a shaper restricted your woodworking so far? Especially seeing that you have not one but two router tables, one of which is sporting a PC7518 workhorse.

The answer to both your questions is No.

That's why the title of this thread is "Educate me on Shapers".

Three years ago, I owned a few hand tools and a 30 year old Shopsmith Mark V.

I sold the Mark V and have slowly been buying nice hobby level equipment that will allow me to enjoy woodworking as I enter retirement.

At this point I can see where a Shaper is a very nice to have, but not a need to have.

A week ago I didn't understand 3 phase, VFD's, RPC's, Euro Block cutter heads, but now I am scanning craigslist and eBay, for what might be a decent opportunity to buy another tool that will enhance my hobby.

[David Kumm]

I applaud you for wanting to learn, not just about woodworking, but also the machines. I started just wanting to work wood and should have learned more about how machines are built and how they should be built to handle the tooling and task. As you are finding out there is more to it than hp and table size and that info will save you money and body parts. Dave

[Jared Sankovich]

Just to keep this informative. As mentioned previously in the thread bearing load rating is just part of the overall build

Delta hd quill 2.25" od
20190102_215844.jpg

Grizzly 8621 quill (3.125 od) same basic build as the pm2700
20190102_215601.jpg

20190102_215616.jpg

Bridgewood 511 quill (3.935" od)
20190102_215118.jpg

20190102_215135.jpg

I'm curious to see if anyone could snap a pic and measurement of a medium+ to heavy duty shaper quill.


Edit
Seriously what is up with the tiny pics on this site?

[Darcy Warner]

Just to keep this informative. As mentioned previously in the thread bearing load rating is just part of the overall build

Delta hd quill 2.25" od
20190102_215844.jpg

Grizzly 8621 quill (3.125 od) same basic build as the pm2700
20190102_215601.jpg

20190102_215616.jpg

Bridgewood 511 quill (3.935" od)
20190102_215118.jpg

20190102_215135.jpg

I'm curious to see if anyone could snap a pic and measurement of a medium+ to heavy duty shaper quill.


Edit
Seriously what is up with the tiny pics on this site?

I am sure I have some. I have rebuilt a couple whitney's, scm t160s, my bauerle smf/2 is huge, my scmt160 with oil pump bearing lube system is huge.

Replacing bearings on one of these class shapers will cost you a minimum of 1k up to 1400.

The last scmi 130 I did, used a pretty generic 6300 series c3 clearance, abec 3 sealed bearing. I tried finding a better class bearing for it, but to no avail.

[brent stanley]

Just to keep this informative. As mentioned previously in the thread bearing load rating is just part of the overall build

Delta hd quill 2.25" od
20190102_215844.jpg

Grizzly 8621 quill (3.125 od) same basic build as the pm2700
20190102_215601.jpg

20190102_215616.jpg

Bridgewood 511 quill (3.935" od)
20190102_215118.jpg

20190102_215135.jpg

I'm curious to see if anyone could snap a pic and measurement of a medium+ to heavy duty shaper quill.


Edit
Seriously what is up with the tiny pics on this site?

Here's a pic of the Wadkin EQ quill assembly followed by a bearing pic. Don't remember for sure, but I know it weighs more than 100lbs.

image_82449.jpg

image_82783.jpg

B

[David Kumm]

Darcy, my T130 from the early 2000s runs a 6011 on the top which is light for a shaper of that size. I believe they used to run a double bearing but don't know what. My Martin T21 runs open phenolic cage ABEC7 bearings with a mechanical oil pump. If it weren't for ebay they would be expensive. It is almost impossible to find any precision higher than ABEC3 in a sealed or shielded bearing. Did the old Whitneys run an oil bath on their 63xx bearings? I would expect that due to the speed needed. A precision oil bearing will run at 3-4X the speed of a standard stamped steel cage one. Here is the T130 quill- or as much as I could see with the car in the way. DSCN3656.jpgDSCN3473.jpg Here are a Knapp, Felder, and SCM Spindle. The Martin is very similar to the SCM but the quill is heavier. The Knapp is a good medium machine but the spindle is compromised in strength due to the draw bar hole through the center. That limits the length. The Felder spindle includes the two 6009 bearings. The spindle is solid but the weak point would be the smallest diameter belt sheave. Irrelevant on the 700 size but the larger shapers can run a 40-50mm spindle but the smallest diameter between the bearings is less so that reduces the build. The SCM and Martin tapers and spindles are solid and the distance between the bearings is the farthest apart. The light duty 6011 top bearing is the weak link as I've beaten to death before. Dave

[Edwin Santos]

The answer to both your questions is No.

That's why the title of this thread is "Educate me on Shapers".

Three years ago, I owned a few hand tools and a 30 year old Shopsmith Mark V.

I sold the Mark V and have slowly been buying nice hobby level equipment that will allow me to enjoy woodworking as I enter retirement.

At this point I can see where a Shaper is a very nice to have, but not a need to have.

A week ago I didn't understand 3 phase, VFD's, RPC's, Euro Block cutter heads, but now I am scanning craigslist and eBay, for what might be a decent opportunity to buy another tool that will enhance my hobby.

Fair enough, thanks for the reply. Good luck with your search,

[David Kumm]

Brent, the EQ ran Angular contact bearings originally. I think some replace them with 6311 deep groove but the A/C are what the quill was designed for. The guys at Canadian know all things Wadkin but Wadkin always used expensive brass cage bearings in their machines. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy, my T130 from the early 2000s runs a 6011 on the top which is light for a shaper of that size. I believe they used to run a double bearing but don't know what. My Martin T21 runs open phenolic cage ABEC7 bearings with a mechanical oil pump. If it weren't for ebay they would be expensive. It is almost impossible to find any precision higher than ABEC3 in a sealed or shielded bearing. Did the old Whitneys run an oil bath on their 63xx bearings? I would expect that due to the speed needed. A precision oil bearing will run at 3-4X the speed of a standard stamped steel cage one. Here is the T130 quill- or as much as I could see with the car in the way. DSCN3656.jpgDSCN3473.jpg Here are a Knapp, Felder, and SCM Spindle. The Martin is very similar to the SCM but the quill is heavier. The Knapp is a good medium machine but the spindle is compromised in strength due to the draw bar hole through the center. That limits the length. The Felder spindle includes the two 6009 bearings. The spindle is solid but the weak point would be the smallest diameter belt sheave. Irrelevant on the 700 size but the larger shapers can run a 40-50mm spindle but the smallest diameter between the bearings is less so that reduces the build. The SCM and Martin tapers and spindles are solid and the distance between the bearings is the farthest apart. The light duty 6011 top bearing is the weak link as I've beaten to death before. Dave

I know the mid to late 90s scmis ran a pretty insignificant bearing, moderately disappointed to find that in the first one I tore down.

Whitney's, porters, and the like had a sump with a wick for the oil lube system.

I have been on a bearing spree lately and have bought so many they are starting to run together.

Side note: bearings for the top head in a whitney s970 are close to 2500 bucks.

Buss ran abec7 6311's in their planers.

The fafnir abec7 bearing I just bought for the motor side of a 24" YA joiner was huge an expensive.

[David Kumm]

I have the best luck finding Fafnir MM or the old RHP precision. The 63xx are getting really hard to find for <200-300, especially the 6311 and 6313. The 62xx are a little easier. I've got a box full of bearings I found reasonable but it is luck when I have what I need in inventory. Dave

[Van Huskey]

There is no doubt that this type of shaper threads has a bit of the ole spindle measuring contest vibe. However, historically they have some of the most interesting information tucked into them.

There are tons of hobbyists that have gained a huge amount of capacity in their shop with "just" a Grizzly G1026 or Delta HD shaper running a 3/4" quill. That is still a big jump from any router table. Nobody should get the impression you need a T150 class shaper to do shaper things but they also shouldn't think that any machine called a shaper opens the whole catalog of shaper tooling.

Speaking for myself these sorts of shaper threads are some of my favorite threads on SMC.

[Joe Calhoon]

Just to keep this informative. As mentioned previously in the thread bearing load rating is just part of the overall build


I'm curious to see if anyone could snap a pic and measurement of a medium+ to heavy duty shaper quill.

?

Jared,here is a picture of the quill assembly of my 40 year old Martin T23. I would consider it a medium plus size shaper. My newer T26 shaper is a lot heavier, larger and more HP. The quill on that one is larger in diameter but shorter in length.

A8E62535-B325-4F3E-B5F8-CFB7C5FC05DF.jpg

[Mike Cutler]

There is no doubt that this type of shaper threads has a bit of the ole spindle measuring contest vibe. However, historically they have some of the most interesting information tucked into them.

There are tons of hobbyists that have gained a huge amount of capacity in their shop with "just" a Grizzly G1026 or Delta HD shaper running a 3/4" quill. That is still a big jump from any router table. Nobody should get the impression you need a T150 class shaper to do shaper things but they also shouldn't think that any machine called a shaper opens the whole catalog of shaper tooling.

Speaking for myself these sorts of shaper threads are some of my favorite threads on SMC.

I think I'm going to suffer from "Bearing Inferiority Syndrome." I have the little guy at 2.25". I truly am just kidding.
The Delta Shaper I have is more than enough for my needs, and as long as I don't abuse it, it will stay that way. If not, I know where to get the bearings replaced.
I like these threads also, there's a ton of info here. A lot of personal opinion, but that's just fine also.
I've said it before, but at the risk of droning on, I think the shaper is a machine that was "lost" for some reason from the "base machines" that make up a working wood shop, of any level. I think that's why people are interested in it.

Van
You're right, even at 2.25" bearing diameter,my Delta HD is still a big leap from the biggest router you can put in a table.
Of course, a 1400lb. Wadkin EQ, advertised with .0002 runout,did come up on Craigslist out on the 'Cape recently.

[brent stanley]

Brent, the EQ ran Angular contact bearings originally. I think some replace them with 6311 deep groove but the A/C are what the quill was designed for. The guys at Canadian know all things Wadkin but Wadkin always used expensive brass cage bearings in their machines. Dave

Mine's the 9000 RPM model and has the original, patented oil mist bearing system in it. A pleasure to use....

[brent stanley]

Of course, a 1400lb. Wadkin EQ, advertised with .0002 runout,did come up on Craigslist out on the 'Cape recently.

Go get it!