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Thread: Seduced by technology, sticking toe in CNC waters

  1. #1
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    Seduced by technology, sticking toe in CNC waters

    Every time I walk into a Rockler or Woodcraft store I see one of those fancy gizmos on display with cords that hook to a computer and say to myself “ bet I could make some cool stuff with that”

    I would be interested in engraving names on toy boxes, making signs, etc.. what should I be looking for in a hobbyist machine?

    Is a CNC and engraver one of the same?

    Do do I simply lay something out on my screen and then push button and WALA it comes out on wood?

    What do I need for software and PC requirements?

    i do have experience with photoshop and layers if that helps

    What should I be looking for in an entry level system?

    go easy on these newbie questions please :-)

    D
    Ridgid R4513 jobsite saw, Ridgid R4512 Table saw, Ridgid JP601 jointer/planer,
    Jet DC-1100VX-CK Dust collector, Bosch 1617 EVSPK router, Bosch RA1181 router table, Rikon 10-326 Band saw
    Dewalt 735 planer, Fuji Q5Platinum HVLP,

  2. #2
    (Ob. discl. I work for a company which makes hobbyist machines)

    A CNC machine is one which uses Computer Numerical Control to move along one or more axes (usually at least 3), an engraver is a CNC machine which specifically has an engraving tool mounted, and which may not be rigid enough to use other tools.

    To get a design (this varies a bit depending on the software) you need to:

    - draw up the design
    - add additional geometry, usually using offsetting if need be to allow for later options
    - select one or more elements and assign toolpaths --- repeat as needed until all needed options are assigned
    - hardware requirements can vary based on the projects which you wish to make --- my son wants to spend almost 10 grand on his dream CAD workstation for college, while I often use a modest Atom tablet to draw things up in tools such as Inkscape and MakerCAM (both of which are free/opensource)

    You can export layers from Photoshop, wash them through Adobe Illustrator (or possibly use a vector .eps or .pdf format to get them out of PS) and then use them for toolpaths.

    My suggestion for folks is that they start by:

    - drawing up a design
    - researching feeds, speeds, and tooling needed for the desired material
    - consider clamping / workholding and stock prep
    - load the design into a free CAM tool and assign / set up toolpaths
    - export G-Code (the machine instructions needed to move the machine)
    - load the G-Code into a free 3D simulator such as Camotics

    There's a list of hobbyist machines on the /r/hobbycnc subreddit on reddit.

    I hope this helps!
    Last edited by William Adams; 12-18-2018 at 1:09 PM.

  3. #3
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    "You will be assimilated..."

    Seriously, CNC for the woodworking shop is a very compelling and enjoyable thing, especially if you have a creative mind and enjoy the idea of a computer-tool marriage. I'm thoroughly enjoying this as an increasingly important part of what I'm doing. (disclosure...I'm not just doing it for fun at this point, but the feeling of fun still persists)

    The good news is that the market has gotten strong enough to provide for a wide range of choices from small and inexpensive on up from there. It's reasonably affordable to 'dip one's toes" into CNC from a hobby perspective without breaking the bank with both "ready to run" and "easy to assemble" kit machines in that category. As you note, places like Woodcraft and Rockler offer machines and you can also opt to buy setups online like Shaepeko and X-Carve. They all generally come with software to create designs and export the "toolpaths" to the machine for cutting; some have dedicated, beginner focused software like Carbide Create with Shaepeko (Bill's software) or more widely distributed software like Vectirc's VCarve. In most cases, you'll need to provide a computer to run the software and interface with the machine. Larger machines that cross over from hobby to more professional use often come with the computer, too...my Camaster machine is like that.

    I do encourage you to explore this and the good news there is that there are a TON of videos on YouTube that you can enjoy and learn from, spanning vendor training and'/or marketing through all kinds of projects by end-users. Once you spend some time watching, it's likely you'll want to take the next step and get a machine of your own.

    I will say one thing...choosing a machine/system that has a robust support community is a really good idea. There is a lot of learning that's involved simply because of the marriage of CAD (computer aided design) and CAM (computer aided manufacturing) that results in CNC (computer numeric control). The first two cover the drawing and subsequent creation of instructions for the machine to do the work and the latter is when the machine gets the instructions to do said work...which are in the format of codes "to indicate motion, etc.) combined with an X-Y-Z coordinate for positioning. (where the numeric part comes into play) IE...right, left, up/down. You are directly involved with the first two pieces...drawing the "thing" and then telling the software to create the instructions (toolpaths) for the machine to work with. How comfortable you are with using the computer to draw things affects your learning curve but it's also something that you can step through relative to complexity...start simple and add things each subsequent project.

    Please continue to ask questions as many of us have already made or started this journey.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #4
    Well if you ever want to talk cnc shoot me an email and we can arrange a shop visit sometime. Alot easier to discuss and show face to face. Im located in Palmyra 50 minutes east of Madison. Dan Nelson nelsonwoodcrafters@yahoo.com

  5. #5
    I got bit by the same bug a few years ago and purchased a Shark CNC from Rocklers. I'm not sure what brands thay carry now besides the Shark but I wouldn't recommend the Shark to you. It was pretty simple to operate and came with vcarve pro software included. that's about all that I can say on the positive side about it.

    You want to find a machine the size that you are happy with and you want it to be RIGID, A plastic machine just isn't going to be very rigid. You will also have better success if you find one that uses a spindle or atleast a full sized router. Palm routers are a little under powered for a CNC.

    Some machine require a computer and the specs that it requires can vary. Some machines don't require it to be connected to a laptop and you just use an SD card.

    Software- some will come with it. Vcarve Pro is a good program to look at to see what it entails to create a file. They have good videos and you can download their trial version to play with before you even buy a CNC.

    If you want some recommendations on machines, you need to tell us your budget and what size of cutting area you want. I went from the small tabletop Shark to a Steel 4'x8' Chinese machine. If it fits your budget, I'd look at the Camaster Stinger. They can be a little pricey compared to some of the options out there but they come built like a tank, software is included, tech support and a great Camheads forum full of other owners who are more than willing to help with any questions or issues you have. The only reason you would ever want to buy another CNC is because you wanted a larger Camaster.

    Tell us where you are and then you can find people who have CNCs that will let you come buy and they'll show you what it takes and how their brand perform. I've never seen anyone with a CNC that didn't want to sit around and talk about them.

  6. #6
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    Big jump from a $2,000 or less hobby machine to a $14,000 Camaster Stinger! Also Look at CNC Router Parts good people to deal with and good equipment.

    Nothing wrong with a Camaster thats for sure, if you can find a smaller one, say 4x4 that someone outgrew jump on it.

    Heres the deal. You purchase a small under powered, under sized hobby machine and you discover you love this stuff. Guess what sometimes selling the starter one you lose a LOT of money. Shop for your second machine first, nothing wrong with used, if it does what you want but its new maybe thats the way to go. Stick around here, lots of experienced smart people to learn from. Jim is one of the best.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  7. #7
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    Bill, yes, it's a jump up to Camaster Stinger I from the basic hobby machines, but about half what you quoted ($7-8K)...unless you buy every option and add some gold leaf.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Bill, yes, it's a jump up to Camaster Stinger I from the basic hobby machines, but about half what you quoted ($7-8K)...unless you buy every option and add some gold leaf.

    Ok but I was going on the price on the 4+4 one I got this summer.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  9. #9
    That is why I asked what his budget was plus with Camaster you are going to get the computer, software, router and about everything but the bits to use along with good tech support. Find a used one and it's a pretty good deal. I went with a Chinese machine and saved a ton of money but I am pretty much alone as far as getting tech support but I knew that from the beginning.

  10. #10
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    Thanks for all the advice so far....I would like to stay in the $2-3000.00 range if possible, and not sure this is even for me yet... My woodworking is "work in progress" As another person responded said I dont want to by an "entry level" machine only to rebuy something later when i figure out the machine i have wont work and my entry level machine now becomes a paper weight.. As Dan Nelson suggested a shop visit to see some of these machines may be well worth my time... Heck i get to Iowa, and Minnesota regularly too... i could always make a pit stop.... I think the big thing i need to figure out is exactly what is i want to do with one, and what exactly it is that the machine can do. Plug and Play would be awesome....

    D
    Ridgid R4513 jobsite saw, Ridgid R4512 Table saw, Ridgid JP601 jointer/planer,
    Jet DC-1100VX-CK Dust collector, Bosch 1617 EVSPK router, Bosch RA1181 router table, Rikon 10-326 Band saw
    Dewalt 735 planer, Fuji Q5Platinum HVLP,

  11. #11
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    David, for that budget, the Shapeoko might be a good choice. It's capable and comes with "beginner friendly" software, but can also utilize designs from higher level software like Vectric or Fusion360 when you are ready for that. And because you final assemble it yourself, you'll have a good understanding of how the machine works mechanically. You can see what's involved from some YouTube videos that folks have done to document that assembly. I know you like the idea of "plug and play", but in that price range, the options sometimes sound scary from reviews, etc. You can choose to use a router motor with that machine or opt for a spindle up-front or later. (Spindles are nice in that they are quieter, have better speed control and excellent power) Shapeoko comes in several sizes and the XXL with a router motor will run you under $2K.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
    As noted, I work for the company which sells the Shapeoko.

    I will note that the principles learned on a hobbyist machine will transfer to a professional one, and for Vectric and so forth, one can continue to use the same software.

    Shapeokos also hold their value pretty well, and used will often bring 80% or so of the new price (this depends on the local market, and the machine being local and not requiring shipping can be a big attractant). Unfortunately, we just finished up our annual sale (Black Friday), and won't likely have another until next year.


    Here's my most recent wood (well, grass/bamboo, but let's not split hairs) project:

    WIN_20181030_17_55_11_Pro.jpg

    Worked up a fixture which allowed me to hold boards on end at the front of the machine to cut the joints. I've been working on a parametric OpenSCAD file which will allow one to generate files to cut on the machine.

  13. #13
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    Frankly the Shopeoko Jim linked too, looks to be a pretty decent machine and its USA sourced. You might look for a used one but the new price is under 2k. Is there a post processor for VCarve Pro?
    Last edited by Bill George; 12-20-2018 at 8:30 AM.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  14. #14
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    Interesting discussion. Like the OP, i keep wanting to enter the arena, but dannnnggggg it is a decently high barrier to really enter. I respect everyone's honest and probably accurate advice that if you really are interested you need to spend $5k+ to get started. I have two problems, one that is a lot of money to spend upfront for me to have an experience similar to when i spent thousands to get into turning. Last time i turned something was reducing the diameter of a 5" PVC DC fitting to fit snugly into my Felder's 120mm dust port. The second problem is i remember vividly the incredible stuff i used to do with the university's laser cutter when building architectural models. The detail and perfection were awesome. Unfortunately, i didnt spend nearly as much time on the CNC. At the time, we had two laser cutters and you had to sign up for 30 min slots. During finals week, you would go in at like 3:30am to cut some crap, because the machines were running 24 hours fully booked. Anyways, you can imagine what it was like for only one CNC. I think they also made you supply your own tooling for the CNC, and at the time it was free for the laser cutter, and $50 for a bit to use the CNC. I was broke, and you can guess what i chose.

    Whats a good way to get started without getting burned on the backend if you decide its not for you? Befriend someone local and use theirs to see if it will actually be used? Buy used with the hopes you can resell for a similar price? I guess the latter is the obvious choice, but ive only seen ONE camaster machine for sale within 3 hours of me in the last year+. Most of the CNCs for sale are $30,000 4x8 or 5x10 machines or homemade plywood machines. There doesnt seem to be much on the used market for decent starter/intermediate machines. I imagine because people are using them and not reselling them.

    I guess i just dont want to spend $8,000 with the illusion this thing is going to work 24/7 making unknown products that sell for hundreds. Most forums will have you believe CNC=Profit.

  15. #15
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    No don't purchase one to think your going to be banking your profits in a few months. Buy one to learn on, make things for gifts or your own ideas. If you can't think of a use for one then don't purchase. I find it fun to learn, I have off and on experience with CNC and do have a market. But since I pay cash for the equipment, did not mortgage my house or retirement plan I can turn down jobs if I am not interested.

    I am headed toward 76 years old and when I talk to folks in my age group about my hobbies their eyes glaze over, its a long ways from sitting in the Lazyboy watching TV.

    Frankly the Shopeoko looks like a decent machine and its made in the USA and assembled by you. Just get the one large enough to actually make something like the one Jim linked above.... blue text router motor in his post.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

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