Tenon Shoulder Question

[JohnM Martin]

Just wondering... do you saw your tenon shoulders right to the line or do you saw close and chisel? If you use a chisel for getting down to the line, do you use a narrow or wide chisel? I'm relatively new to the craft and just wondering about the best way to get good, consistent and repeatable results.

[Steven Mikes]

Just wondering... do you saw your tenon shoulders right to the line or do you saw close and chisel? If you use a chisel for getting down to the line, do you use a narrow or wide chisel? I'm relatively new to the craft and just wondering about the best way to get good, consistent and repeatable results.

I try to saw right to the line. Sometimes it fits right off the saw, but more often it doesn't.
Generally you want to use as wide a chisel as you can for paring to make sure the tenon stays flat.

[Warren Mickley]

First of all, you really want a knife line all the way around the stock. Forty years ago Ian Kirby wrote an article for Fine Woodworking suggesting sawing 1/32 from the knife line and then putting the chisel in the knife line and paring down. If you use a 1 inch chisel, you can pare about a half inch at a time and let the other half of the chisel ride against the surface already pared.

Six months later Frank Klausz wrote in saying Kirby's method required a master craftsman with an extremely sharp chisel "and I beg the beginner to avoid it." I did not think I was a master craftsman or that it was particularly difficult.

Shortly after that I went to just sawing on the knife line, no trough to get started, just sawing. I have used this method ever since and it is the method outlined by Peter Nicholson who was a cabinetmaker in London in the late 1700s.

You could use either method. If you do use the saw and pare method, take some care to get a nice saw cut (even though it will be cut away) so you get practice making a nice uniform cut.

[Mark Rainey]

I use Ian Kirby' method that Warren describes. On wide tenons I will use a shoulder plane to pare to the knife lines. One of these days I may have the courage to saw to the line.

[Phil Gaudio]

After creating a knife line, I pare a little waste to create a trough, and saw. Generally, I am left with some small amount that has to be removed by a shoulder plane or chisel (angle down toward base of tenon).

[Simon MacGowen]

After creating a knife line, I pare a little waste to create a trough, and saw.

Previously, the Kirby method as described by Warren. I believe a few other old guards (Phil Lowes, I think) use the sawing and paring method.

Now, the Hayward method (Woodwork Joints): Knife line + sloping groove (Sellers calls it a knife wall) + sawing to the line (and to depth). In the majority of cases, no more follow-up work is needed. Not even paring. Sellers uses the same technique to cut dado walls.

Try it a few times a day, and in less than a week, you will become a master of Hayward's technique.

Simon

[lowell holmes]

It is a good excuse to buy a shoulder plane.

[Simon MacGowen]

It is a good excuse to buy a shoulder plane.

Agreed, but shoulder planes have a learning curve...which is steeper than that of Hayward's sawing technique for the shoulder work. A shoulder plane, of course, is to be had for handling more than just shoulder work.

Simon

[Charles Guest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vhs4hFoLag

https://charteris.net/

[Bill McDermott]

I saw to the knifed line on the wide faces and leave a bit to chisel off on the narrow faces. I also use the chisel to clean up the sawed lines by undercutting a wee bit and making sure the corners are clear.

[Matthew Hartlin]

My processes has been a knifed line all the way around, a small trough to rest the saw in and make the cut. I'm almost always left with sliver of material that is proud of the knife line that I pare with a 1 1/2' chisel every so slightly undercutting into the tenon. I'm personally not a fan of shoulder planes, so I stick with the paring chisel. Top of mind for me as I just cut a bunch of shoulders and it's always pleasing to see a night tight joint.

[Brian Holcombe]

Definetly prefer to cut the line and I teach people to cut the line. Paring is not a flawless process, there is a temptation to undercut. Cutting the shoulder accurately the first time is the best way and short of that just touching up with a wide chisel to your knife marks.

Making big groove with the knife is another spot for error, unless you knife exactly your kerf it will make the saw center itself between the grooves and likely will cut away the knife line and make your part shorter than expected.

[Robert Engel]

I chisel a relief cut like Phil to the line to register the saw against.

If using a chisel I use the widest I can and take small amounts, like 1/8" at a time. Register the chisel against what you've already pared.

I follow up with a narrow chisel (1/2") to put a slight bevel on the shoulder for a tight fit.

No I wouldn't rush out and buy a shoulder plane. For a beginner (and really anyone) IMO a shoulder plane can get you in trouble real fast unless you are quite proficient at using one.

[John Schtrumpf]

...

Now, the Hayward method (Woodwork Joints): Knife line + sloping groove (Sellers calls it a knife wall) + sawing to the line (and to depth). In the majority of cases, no more follow-up work is needed. Not even paring. Sellers uses the same technique to cut dado walls.

...
Simon

That is how I do it.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Partly, it depends on your saw. Frid sharpened all his saw rip so they would cut faster, which is messy for crosscutting. In that case you need to knife the edge and either leave room and pare to the line, or cut the groove to saw in. A sharp crosscut-filed saw can cut cleanly enough that you can just saw to the line. You just need a procedure that works with your tools and skills.

Of course, acquiring more of both can be helpful.