Chris Swarz surfaced at Highland Woodworking.

[Doug Hepler]

I am late to this discussion, which has now gone off in many directions. Regarding the subject of making a living as a craftsman I would recommend reading Peter Korn's book, Why we make things and why it matters. It's the autobiography of a middle-class kid who wanted to make his living as a craftsman and what he went through. This involved many complex personal choices. My point is that we can choose which values we want to emphasize in our lives. Obviously many people are willing to spend two years of their lives and many tens of thousands of dollars to get a formal education in woodworking. Some are willing to make the sacrifices required by a low income. We can hear anecdotes about good and bad customer experiences and we can understand the economic struggle. Korn's book reveals the motivations for choosing such a life and the satisfactions that compensate for the social and economic realities of making your living as a craftsman. (His motivations and satisfactions, at least.) Professional craftspeople demonstrate that there are values in life that are greater than money and the flashy things that money can buy -- and that there are people who are willing to honor those values every day.

This is not a sermon. My point is that the good life is a series of good choices.

Doug

[Charles Guest]

Greatest furniture commission ever (?) (request a trial membership):

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2008...ommission-ever

While the lumber company is still in business, sadly its furniture-making arm is not.

https://irionlumber.com/irion-company-furniture-makers/

[Hilton Ralphs]

A family of four in the U.S. is considered at the poverty line with $24,600 in annual income.

Wow! Here in South Africa, the poverty line is the equivalent of $64 per person per month. I know this if off-topic but just for some perspective.

[Kory Cassel]

Wow! Here in South Africa, the poverty line is the equivalent of $64 per person per month. I know this if off-topic but just for some perspective.

$64 is a very low wage for a single day where I live which is a low cost of living area of the US.

[Jim Koepke]

$64 is a very low wage for a single day where I live which is a low cost of living area of the US.

Yet even in some of the higher cost areas, that is what some employers try to pay their workers.

The math is simple, $10/hr is $80 a day for 8 hours.

My wife used to marvel that one day of overtime for me would be more than her pay for the week. As my pay increased and her job became less pleasant, we decided we could do fine if she left her employer.

In a previous position at an employer with high turn over, after being there for years one of the managers told her they knew she was stealing from them but they hadn't figured out how, after all, no one stays there as long as she had. That company is no longer in business. With that kind of management it isn't hard to understand.

With employers like that though is it any wonder people are willing to try making it on their own?

Often one of my thoughts about my father going into business for himself was because he didn't like the idea of someone else telling him what to do.

jtk

[David Utterback]

I really tire looking through long threads that contain zero information on the stated subject so others may have also pointed out that CS appears at times on Roy Underhill's show, The Woodwright Shop. Together they are entirely entertaining and informative. Both of them are witty and well versed in the topics they cover. They emphasize basic hand tool skills that continue to need to be presented to hobbyists in the US and elsewhere. They are both gentlemen who have incredible communication skills and real passion for the craft. Both have had substantial influence on me and my work.

Kind regards to all who love their work!
David

[Charles Guest]

I am late to this discussion, which has now gone off in many directions. Regarding the subject of making a living as a craftsman I would recommend reading Peter Korn's book, Why we make things and why it matters. It's the autobiography of a middle-class kid who wanted to make his living as a craftsman and what he went through. This involved many complex personal choices. My point is that we can choose which values we want to emphasize in our lives. Obviously many people are willing to spend two years of their lives and many tens of thousands of dollars to get a formal education in woodworking. Some are willing to make the sacrifices required by a low income. We can hear anecdotes about good and bad customer experiences and we can understand the economic struggle. Korn's book reveals the motivations for choosing such a life and the satisfactions that compensate for the social and economic realities of making your living as a craftsman. (His motivations and satisfactions, at least.) Professional craftspeople demonstrate that there are values in life that are greater than money and the flashy things that money can buy -- and that there are people who are willing to honor those values every day.

This is not a sermon. My point is that the good life is a series of good choices.

Doug

Don't disagree with a word of it in theory, but most of these guys are not satisfied with the living that can be made from purely being a woodworker. Most teach, this certainly includes Peter Korn, and some teach a whole, whole lot either at others' schools or their own. There's nothing wrong with teaching, but there is something wrong with waxing poetical about the craft and the lifestyle choice claimed to go with, when in reality they're supplementing in any way they can. And this doesn't begin to count the income earned by a spouse, which we've already touched on. Long story, short: don't fall for the starving artist bit. According to the Irion commission story I linked to in another post, some of the quite literally world-class craftspeople who worked on the commission have left the trade altogether. Now, that's a real shame. A way bigger shame than Schwarz leaving a magazine or Underwood retiring from his show.

[Doug Hepler]

Charles,

You wrote<Don't disagree with a word of it in theory>

I don't mean this as a theory. Craftsmen who stick with their craft have made a real choice to recognize their values and do the work they prefer. They deserve respect and admiration. I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker. Of course I get that. I think of Sam Maloof, Tage Frid, many others. Outstanding craftsmen but AFAIK not rich. If a craftsman can supplement his income more power to him or her. Peter Korn describes many ventures to keep himself solvent. Yes, many write, teach, etc. That's great.

My point is wider than woodworking. The well-working of our society depends (IMO) on people who will do the work they love instead of trying to maximize their wealth. We do not respect them enough. We seem to respect greedy and selfish people instead just because(?) they are rich.

Doug

[Mark Rainey]

Charles,

You wrote<Don't disagree with a word of it in theory>

I don't mean this as a theory. Craftsmen who stick with their craft have made a real choice to recognize their values and do the work they prefer. They deserve respect and admiration. I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker. Of course I get that. I think of Sam Maloof, Tage Frid, many others. Outstanding craftsmen but AFAIK not rich. If a craftsman can supplement his income more power to him or her. Peter Korn describes many ventures to keep himself solvent. Yes, many write, teach, etc. That's great.

My point is wider than woodworking. The well-working of our society depends (IMO) on people who will do the work they love instead of trying to maximize their wealth. We do not respect them enough. We seem to respect greedy and selfish people instead just because(?) they are rich.

Doug

Exactly Doug! We know our society works best when good people do good work and earn a fair living. When the goal is money, problems ensue. There are good physicians who want to do a good job and help people and get fair renumeration and there are physicians who want to earn a big salary by billing patients for services. Jessica is surviving as an artisan. It is OK for an artisan to be dismayed when they see some "celebrity" woodworker who is not a true artisan. Artisans are dwindling and our society will suffer. I love Paul Sellers, but I am sure some chuckle when he taps on his bevel edge chisel when mortising. Roy Underhill is entertaining, educational, and amazing, but I am sure some chuckle when he tears out planing endgrain and bleeds over his work. I respect what these celebrities do and I thank them for helping me in my hobby. And Jessica deserves our respect as a fine woodworking artisan.

[Edwin Santos]

Charles,

You wrote<Don't disagree with a word of it in theory>

I don't mean this as a theory. Craftsmen who stick with their craft have made a real choice to recognize their values and do the work they prefer. They deserve respect and admiration. I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker. Of course I get that. I think of Sam Maloof, Tage Frid, many others. Outstanding craftsmen but AFAIK not rich. If a craftsman can supplement his income more power to him or her. Peter Korn describes many ventures to keep himself solvent. Yes, many write, teach, etc. That's great.

My point is wider than woodworking. The well-working of our society depends (IMO) on people who will do the work they love instead of trying to maximize their wealth. We do not respect them enough. We seem to respect greedy and selfish people instead just because(?) they are rich.

Doug

I should let Charles speak for himself, but what I interpret from his post is that the choices you reference are coming with greater and greater sacrifice than ever before. Or stated differently, the price of the choice is rising. It's really a shame, but it seems to be the way the jungle is evolving.

I know a guy who decided to chuck the corporate world to pursue his dream of metalworking art. After a year or so of this, he and his family were miserable from the financial pressure and you know what? He stopped loving metalworking. Neither this guy nor his family were the types I would call money hungry or greedy, but the sacrifices and constant pressure hurt all the same.
Like I say, it's a shame, but simply pursuing what you love may not be as realistic as it should be.

Sometimes I look at this through the lens of a parent. None of us wants to see our kids struggle. I'm tempted to tell my kids to just pursue what you love, but the Dad in me worries about them being conspired to a life of hardship so I'm advising them to think with their head as well as their heart in terms of a career choice.

Are there artisan hand tool woodworkers who can do it and make a good living? You bet, and some of them are here on this forum. But my hat's off to them because I think they're in the minority who are beating the odds. It's possible to beat the stock market, and it's possible to walk out of a Las Vegas casino a winner, but the odds are not with you. If you're plying a trade that broader society doesn't value as much as we wish it did, the odds are not with you either.

All this said, I think it would work if a person's personal situation supports it i.e. spousal income, inherited wealth, living in a low cost location, supplemental income, hooking into a good market for your products, etc. Without any of these advantages, it's a tough call... As I say, the cost of the choice is what's escalating.
I for one am cheering on those who make that choice, but I wouldn't recommend it to my kids.

[Doug Hepler]

Mark, thank you for getting my point. So we agree on the important part. I'm not familiar with Jessica's work, but if she chooses to work professionally at her craft in this age of Ikea, she deserves recognition and respect.

Regarding the original issue of this thread, yes, it's OK for an artisan to be dismayed by the fame of a "celebrity". I don't hold people responsible for their feelings, for example, jealousy. They are responsible, however, for what they do as a result of those feelings, for example dismissing someone's work based on who he/she is instead of the quality of the work itself. That kind of thinking is at the root of all kinds of prejudice, sexism, racism, etc. That was my original objection to Jessica's comment way back on page 1 and I think it is worth making again.

All the best

Doug

[Kory Cassel]

And Jessica deserves our respect as a fine woodworking artisan.

Mark, as I stated before, I respect Jessica's point of view on 'instructional media' in a very real way because I share it about media in my own occupation. Furthermore I'm delighted to hear about anyone making a living producing fine furniture and they have a good measure of my respect at the mere prospect.

How far are you proposing that respect to extend?

Are you suggesting that when Jessica goes on to say that Chris Schwarz is not important because the English speaking hobbyist community is quite small, that all contributions originate from the formally trained professional, ask whether it is possible to sell furniture in the States without a certificate or diploma...that the hobbyist members of the forum are not qualified enough to comment? I believe another member posted something like that idea.

In the face of the numbers posted on the thread and the bald facts of the existence of many world class craftsman who happen to be self taught without diplomas, I think she carried her point too far to try to 'win' her original argument. If you're proposing that we're not ever allowed to disagree with the professional woodworker here on the forum, even on discussions unrelated to technical aspects of the craft, that seems like too much respect for the forum to survive as an open interchange of thoughts and ideas. Unlike a lot who have disagreed with Jessica, I see her original point, she did not have to win that argument with me.

[Mark Rainey]

Doug/Kory, I understand your viewpoints and value your contributions to this enjoyable debate. Happy woodworking! Mark

[Charles Guest]

Charles,

You wrote<Don't disagree with a word of it in theory>

I don't mean this as a theory. Craftsmen who stick with their craft have made a real choice to recognize their values and do the work they prefer. They deserve respect and admiration. I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker. Of course I get that. I think of Sam Maloof, Tage Frid, many others. Outstanding craftsmen but AFAIK not rich. If a craftsman can supplement his income more power to him or her. Peter Korn describes many ventures to keep himself solvent. Yes, many write, teach, etc. That's great.

My point is wider than woodworking. The well-working of our society depends (IMO) on people who will do the work they love instead of trying to maximize their wealth. We do not respect them enough. We seem to respect greedy and selfish people instead just because(?) they are rich.

Doug

I would just love to hear, one time, one of these guys or gals acknowledge they couldn't 'practice their craft' or whatever lofty verbiage without the $250K salary their spouse earns that essentially underwrites the whole affair (essentially a glorified hobby?), or whatever amount, or wherever the real money came from or comes from. Relatively very few are making it on the woodworking alone but there seems to be a tendency to leave the assumption out there that they are. Easy to hide behind because it's 'not nice to ask' about such things.

On another note, with regard to woodworking instruction in general, if it's free or costs very little then you are likely getting what you paid for. Oh sure, you can get snippets and tips for next to nothing, but not wholistic instruction from start to finish on complex projects of real depth and breadth. For this, you have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars and rightly so.

[Warren Mickley]

I think you are living in fantasy land, Charles. People who have not studied mathematics or economics may not realize that half the families in the United States have incomes below the median. And many who make more than the median are putting money away and actually living on less than the median. If you cannot live comfortably on less than the median, I wouldn't know what to say.