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Thread: Chris Swarz surfaced at Highland Woodworking.

  1. #106
    Jessica - I believe there are quite a few Amish woodworking companies started as small operations without any kind of "formal" teaching. The US culture has looked down on vocational training for quite awhile. I'm a lawyer, and when I first started in 1995, I had a client who had spent 2 years looking for young machinists and tool and die makers in the US without success, and they were offering over $100K in 1995! Expanding their search outside of the US, they found several in the UK. There's no "artisan" culture in the US that values the beauty, art and skill of traditional handwork. Yes there are niches for very high-end clients, but if not for the hobby community here, traditional techniques and tools would die. People like CS, Roy Underhill, etc. have kept this history alive and attracted hobbyists to join in. I think as a professional you do a disservice to dismiss them. Ultimately, the interest they generate in traditional craft techniques helps create awareness of and grow the market for the work of professionals like yourself.
    Last edited by Eric Rathhaus; 12-16-2018 at 9:39 PM.

  2. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Kory Cassel View Post
    Jessica, the question as to why craftsmen in the States don't need certificates to sell their products goes all the way back to the founding of the country and our repressed trade by taxations and English law. It's a long story but it boils down to this: If you are not physically hurting someone or polluting the environment, you can make and sell almost anything that anyone is willing to buy. It's kind of a buyer beware situation, but the market will correct itself. A short time of making bad products will close a business in the States. I would like to keep it that way because our secondary education, like formal training in woodworking, is more expensive than many can afford. If our educational systems were different, an enforced guild of some kind might work. The opportunity to produce a finished product and bring it to market is a big part of why we fought for independence.
    Tying the lack of skilled trade certification and education in the US to the war of independence is a bit of a stretch.
    There was a time when there were artisan guilds, vo-tech schools and unions that played a big role in skilled trade education that could be considered formal or at least approximating it. The unions in my opinion were impressive in their enforcement of standards. You couldn't just call yourself a journeyman and be one. This was the case for a long time in many trades.

    IMO, the demand for traditional woodworking skills in particular changed over time based on factory produced furniture, consumer price sensitivity and a rising cost of living that pushed hand work overseas. Traditional fine woodworking technique of the sort that CS teaches is not much more than a boutique niche profession in the US despite the fact that many of us wish it were not so. The closest significant professional trade that approximates woodworking in the US are the shops assembling kitchen and bath cabinets, doors, drawers and trim carpentry, the kind of work that goes in every home. They are using Ritter machines, Lamello joiners, Blum hardware, and now CNC.
    This work is nothing like what CS is teaching and promoting. If someone wanted a piece of furniture for their home or office, it is the exceptional one that would go out seeking an artisan to custom build it.

    CS and others like him are doing a nice job keeping a traditional craft alive, but his efforts are aimed at hobbyists and enthusiasts, not for anyone seeking a career path as far as I can tell.
    Like I mentioned in an earlier post, perhaps the best things that these notable celebrity woodworkers do is inspire others to take up the craft, if even just for themselves.

    I truly don't feel Jessica is attempting to malign him, but perhaps questioning why he's not an orange, when in fact he's a very good apple with a loyal following.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Santos View Post
    Tying the lack of skilled trade certification and education in the US to the war of independence is a bit of a stretch.
    If I build a cabinet in my shop to sell to my neighbor and the Edwin Santos guild of master cabinetmakers sends me a letter telling me to cease and desist. Who is the government of the United States of America going to support? Any why is that?

    There are very old ideas associated with what it means to be a citizen of the US. One of which is his pursuit of happiness. Safety aside, I can build and sell anything I want and it is a very different situation in other parts of the world where quality standards are enforced to help keep traditional craftsmanship alive. I need no certification to commercialize my woodworking in this country because those pesky lingering ideas about letting people make their living as they choose trump maintaining high standards of traditional craftsmanship here. It has everything to do with our collective cultural attitude informed by our earliest history.
    Last edited by Kory Cassel; 12-17-2018 at 6:50 AM.
    Dojo Kun, 1: Be humble and polite.

  4. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Kory Cassel View Post
    If I build a cabinet in my shop to sell to my neighbor and the Edwin Santos guild of master cabinetmakers sends me a letter telling me to cease and desist. Who is the government of the United States of America going to support? Any why is that?
    Sigh. You win.
    I give up in my attempts to illustrate the merit in both points of view in this thread, including yours.
    It seems in order for one point of view to be right, the other has to be absolutely wrong and without any merit whatsoever.

  5. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Rathhaus View Post
    Jessica There's no "artisan" culture in the US that values the beauty, art and skill of traditional handwork..
    I have been a part of an artisan culture my whole career. We value the beauty, art and skill of traditional handwork. If you are not familiar with people like us, that is a shame. We certainly know lawyers who are.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Santos View Post
    Sigh. You win.
    I give up in my attempts to illustrate the merit in both points of view in this thread, including yours.
    It seems in order for one point of view to be right, the other has to be absolutely wrong and without any merit whatsoever.
    Well said Edwin. Jessica made a good point. Others have their point, which I also respect. Let’s get back to woodworking.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I have been a part of an artisan culture my whole career. We value the beauty, art and skill of traditional handwork. If you are not familiar with people like us, that is a shame. We certainly know lawyers who are.
    Professionals like you, Tom King, Jessica and many others are an invaluable asset to this forum and your generous contributions are appreciated.

  8. #113
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    Edwin,

    Where you see lemons, I see lemonade. I think you can both be right. In my mind, your point about guilds and unions having standards which are designed to be able to promote excellence in work product is true. They do.

    Kory's point, is also true and more compelling in my view. You can join a guild and be bound by their rules here in America, or you can say, I don't need those guys, my stuff is already first rate. It's your choice, the market can decide who is right. In Europe, you have only one choice, the way the gub'mint tells you to do it. That's Kory's point.

    We shucked this notion of being told what to do back in 1776 when we told King George to keep it movin'. In essence, the base state for man is to be free, and government needs to be constrained and operate within set boundaries. Telling people what they can and can't do with their lives is not part of that contract. It's spelled out in our Declaration of Independence where it talks about Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, You will notice that the founders did not sign up for a Guarantee of Happiness.

    To test this notion if this premise really does work, one only needs to look to the many self made Billionaires in the United States. Check out the list of the world's richest people for this year:

    1 Increase Jeff Bezos $112 billion Increase 54 United States Amazon
    2 Decrease Bill Gates $90 billion Increase 62 United States Microsoft
    3 Decrease Warren Buffett $84 billion Increase 87 United States Berkshire Hathaway
    4 Increase Bernard Arnault $72 billion Increase 69 France LVMH
    5 Steady Mark Zuckerberg $71 billion Increase 33 United States Facebook
    6 Decrease Amancio Ortega $70 billion Decrease 81 Spain Inditex, Zara
    7 Decrease Carlos Slim $67.1 billion Increase 78 Mexico América Móvil, Grupo Carso
    8 Steady Charles Koch $60 billion Increase 82 United States Koch Industries
    8 Steady David Koch $60 billion Increase 77 United States Koch Industries
    10 Decrease Larry Ellison $58.5 billion Increase 73 United States Oracle Corporation

    Notice anything compelling about the list? 7 of the top 10 being American? Looks to my eye almost all on that list are self made in their generation to boot. Clearly, the idea of freedom is more than just some quaint 200+ year old notion.




    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Santos View Post
    Sigh. You win.
    I give up in my attempts to illustrate the merit in both points of view in this thread, including yours.
    It seems in order for one point of view to be right, the other has to be absolutely wrong and without any merit whatsoever.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Rathhaus View Post
    The US culture has looked down on vocational training for quite awhile.
    “U.S. culture” is more than what you see on TV. Outside of LA and New York, millions of Americans do honorable work with their hands, many of them formally trained through vocational programs at the high school level or in trade schools. There are still a fair number of folks who receive that training through a union as well.

  10. #115
    Warren, I don't mean there aren't artisans in the U.S. Such a notion would contradict my earlier statements. My point is that we don't have a culture that recognizes and values artisans. Maybe because we didn't have strong guilds? In the US, "we" glorify the entrepreneur and owner not the maker.

  11. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Lawrence View Post
    “U.S. culture” is more than what you see on TV. Outside of LA and New York, millions of Americans do honorable work with their hands, many of them formally trained through vocational programs at the high school level or in trade schools. There are still a fair number of folks who receive that training through a union as well.
    The topic is hand tool woodworking. Haven't seen many high school vocational programs teaching hand tool woodworking recently. Hand tool woodworking trade schools are thin on the ground and quite expensive and remote for most. Haven't seen many unions training hand tool woodworkers recently. If you have examples, it would be nice to know about them.

    Of course you're right about many trades, but when you reduce to hand tool woodworking, I'd have to say there ain't much out there and what is there is hard to access for a kid in Memphis, say, or Pittsburgh. (I don't know about opportunities in Memphis or Pittsburgh specifically, but don't know of any hand tool woodworking trade schools there and if they have hand tool woodworking in their high schools, I would love to be shown to be wrong. And I'm still looking for the union that teaches hand tool woodworking anywhere.)
    Fair winds and following seas,
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  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Waldron View Post
    The topic is hand tool woodworking...
    Read the comment I quoted, and am responding to, which suggests Americans “look down” on “vocational training” and goes on to talk about machinists, etc. It is clearly not limited to hand tool woodworking.

    My point is that some pockets or circles in America may look down on vocational training, but I do not believe that is true for the country as a whole. That is the whole premise of “Dirty Jobs” and a host of other aspects of the culture.

    I am not sure what your point is about there not being formal training programs in hand tool woodworking. We don’t have formal training in buggy driving either. Are your hypothetical children in Memphis or Pittsburgh looking for a hobby, or are they looking for a reliable way to earn a living?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Eric Rathhaus View Post
    The US culture has looked down on vocational training for quite awhile.
    The same is true in Europe. Young people have been told for decades by the government and society they need to keep studying and go to university if possible. This has created a situation where a lot of people look down on others who work with their hands. Kids nowadays all want a nice clean desk job and become a manager as a result. The number of young people in the furniture making trade has been dropping steadily since I went into business for myself 12 years ago. It's a trend you see it all over the place, especially in Western European countries. The number of job openings for plumbers, painters, carpenters, mechanics, you name it has never been higher. Companies are begging people to come work for them and a lot of companies have to let jobs go because they simply can't find any qualified people. At least not for the money they're offering.

    The number of people who are willing to pay for bespoke furniture has been dropping as well so I shifted my focus to the more wealthy clients. A nice side effect of this is that I don't have to do any advertising. I get all my work by word of mouth. When I make a beautiful, unique piece of furniture they want to show it off to their friends who of course can't be left behind.

  14. #119
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    Jessica, you are the uncommon artisan who Neanderthals worship. You are keeping the dream alive. Most of us are hobby woodworkers who know we can’t ( or don’t want to try ) make a living with wood. Our culture has a lust of money. We Neanders know there are aspects of our humanity that are more important than money. Many celebrities understand our fantasy & make a buck facilitating our dreams. You are walking the walk, living our dream. Keep it up!

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rainey View Post
    Our culture has a lust of money. We Neanders know there are aspects of our humanity that are more important than money.
    I would be deeply unhappy if I had to sit at an office desk all day long. I would go crazy if I wasn't busy making nice things and I know I'm very lucky I get to go to work every day to do what I love to do.

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