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Thread: Chris Swarz surfaced at Highland Woodworking.

  1. #76
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    That makes sense--but I think some poster were put off by the way Jessica made her comment and therefore came to the "defense" of CW. It just seems very dismissive simply because she's not familiar of who CW is. By that vein, you can just turn around and say that there's no European professional woodworkers worth mentioning because you've never heard of them, which is preposterous.

    The flexing on WWW and Internet knowledge was weird but mildly interesting, though!


    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    Yes, Belgium or Holland I think. I think Europe values the Trades more than we do. And I wouldn't expect Europeans to hear of our guys any more than we hear of theirs - the world is a big place. But being American, I've never needed multiple languages - everything I need is delivered in English. Tage and Frank taught me as much or more than Chris. But they wrote in English. Jessica is probably right - there are probably a TON of others I'd enjoy in Europe, but I can't read their languages.

  2. I've been looking at some of the stuff Swarz made and he obviously knows a thing or 2 about woodworking. But his audience is clearly the English speaking hobbyist woodworker and thus quite small. The same goes for Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth (I know he's British). There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women all over the world, hobbyists or professionals, who couldn't care less about them.

    There are also a lot of professional woodworkers all over Europe who teach evening or weekend courses. They aren't famous so you never hear of them but the hobbyist woodworker finds them through word of mouth, forums or local advertisements. A good friend of mine who also has his own furniture making business gives weekend courses. He started doing it about 8 years ago and it's a great way to make some extra money. I know of several others in other parts of the country who do the same.

    What I'm trying to say is Swarz's importance and relevance to the global world of woodworking is not nearly as big as Americans may like to think it is. And let's not forget that innovations, new techniques and methods almost always come from the professionals which then trickle down to the hobbyist.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women all over the world, hobbyists or professionals, who couldn't care less about them.

    What I'm trying to say is Swarz's importance and relevance to the global world of woodworking is not nearly as big as Americans may like to think it is. And let's not forget that innovations, new techniques and methods almost always come from the professionals which then trickle down to the hobbyist.
    Nobody said that Schwartz, Cosman or even Charlesworth were global celebrities with enormous audiences. We simply said that some of us like to learn from them. We got your point that Europe has their own. Go read post #72.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
    - Sir Edmund Burke

  4. #79
    Hi Jessica

    This thread is (was) about Chris Schwarz and the contribution he has made to woodworking. For those on this forum, it refers to the contribution he has made to their woodworking. Clearly, for those here, this does not refer to the contribution of other woodworkers to woodworking around the world. And it does not imply that others around the world are being ignored. It is simply a recognition of the work one man has done to further the woodworking passion of those with whom he has had contact. This is largely the USA, but includes other English-speaking countries such as Canada, the UK and Australia. Context is everything.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    I've been looking at some of the stuff Swarz made and he obviously knows a thing or 2 about woodworking. But his audience is clearly the English speaking hobbyist woodworker and thus quite small. The same goes for Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth (I know he's British). There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women all over the world, hobbyists or professionals, who couldn't care less about them.

    There are also a lot of professional woodworkers all over Europe who teach evening or weekend courses. They aren't famous so you never hear of them but the hobbyist woodworker finds them through word of mouth, forums or local advertisements. A good friend of mine who also has his own furniture making business gives weekend courses. He started doing it about 8 years ago and it's a great way to make some extra money. I know of several others in other parts of the country who do the same.

    What I'm trying to say is Swarz's importance and relevance to the global world of woodworking is not nearly as big as Americans may like to think it is. And let's not forget that innovations, new techniques and methods almost always come from the professionals which then trickle down to the hobbyist.
    Jessica, thank you for your point of view. I respect it. Others have different points of view which I respect. Most importantly keep contributing your expertise to this forum. Your generosity is appreciated!

  6. @ Derek Cohen: I understand what you're saying. It's just that David Charlesworth said he made a large contribution to "the woodworking community". That's a very broad, generalising statement and to me it seemed as though he was saying there's a global community that has been influenced by Swarz. I got a little carried away by pointing out this is not the case.

  7. #82
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    I cannot speak to numbers in the world as a whole, but in the US the Hobbyist woodworker VASTLY outnumbers the professional. Estimates are around 17 million hobbyists. Professionals are measured in the tens of thousands. Woodworking is the fourth largest hobby in the US. In the English speaking world as a whole. The numbers are much larger but the disparity remains the same. Chris Schwarz and David Charlesworth have taught and influenced many in hand methods. Rediscovering and providing instruction on techniques that had been largely abandoned by the hobbyists with the proliferation of power tools. Let's not forget this discussion is going on in Neanderthal Haven. New designs and innovations are not what this is about. It's about exposure to the old hand methods that many have no access to instruction to learn!
    Dojo Kun, 1: Be humble and polite.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    The English speaking wood working community you mean. There are scores of skilled craftsmen and women in non-English speaking countries who have never heard of him... or you for that matter. That is not meant as an insult but the wood working "community" as you call it is larger than you think. It doesn't consist of a few forums and youtube channels. What Swarz does and his opinions are not nearly as important as you think they are.
    I'd reckon its a safe guess that this is not the case anymore, or all gonna change soon enough.
    It's more than likely that English speaking youtube channels and websites have a wider audience, that probably have deeper pockets to buy whatever's in the adds, buy tools
    and videos so this is why they are more prevalent.
    I wish I was wrong on that, but would have imagined I'd have stumbled across those folks allready...

    Much like a lot of folks here, I look near daily for new craftsmen on youtube, not caring which language they speak
    But alas, all I can find is just a few folks who aren't geared towards an English speaking community.
    Here it goes on my youtube

    Pieter Koorn De Ornamentenwinkel
    Ishitani furniture
    Roeland Brekelmans
    Seekelot
    and maybe one or two folks that don't have much content unfortunately.

    Have you got any recommendations Jessica?

    I would love to see some more eastern nethanderals, as I do like Alan Peters work quite a bit,
    and equally wondering where the other European channels for cabinetmaking are hidden

    Really love Schwarz's enthusiasm, he makes a good presenter, as well as a writer.
    I do hope that no.3 was a lemon beyond repair, as that was the only thing I found hard watching.

    Don't know where I'd be without y'all folks making videos, it speedily projected me to where I wanted to be.

    Tomas

  9. #84
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    In an effort to dig deeper, Jessica writes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    I've been looking at some of the stuff Swarz made and he obviously knows a thing or 2 about woodworking. But his audience is clearly the English speaking hobbyist woodworker and thus quite small.
    From the font of all knowledge, wikipedia, % of world population as it relates to native speaking inhabitants, middle column is 2007 census numbers and then updated with 2010 numbers where they exist and then finally percentage.

    1 Mandarin (entire branch) 935 (955) 14.1%
    2 Spanish 390 (405) 5.85%
    3 English 365 (360) 5.52%
    4 Hindi[a] 295 (310) 4.46%
    5 Arabic 280 (295) 4.23%
    6 Portuguese 205 (215) 3.08%
    7 Bengali (Bangla) 200 (205) 3.05%
    8 Russian 160 (155) 2.42%
    9 Japanese 125 (125) 1.92%
    10 Punjabi 95 (100) 1.44%
    11 German 92 (95) 1.39%
    12 Javanese 82 1.25%
    13 Wu (inc. Shanghainese) 80 1.20%
    14 Malay (inc. Indonesian and Malaysian) 77 1.16%
    15 Telugu 76 1.15%
    16 Vietnamese 76 1.14%
    17 Korean 76 1.14%
    18 French 75 1.12%
    19 Marathi 73 1.10%
    20 Tamil 70 1.06%
    56 Dutch 21 0.32%

    Now if you were to substitute DUTCH in your statement, it would actually be true. As inconvenient as it is, including some facts in your posts would be appreciated by all.

    Happy Sunday, regardless of what ye speak.
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 12-16-2018 at 4:22 PM.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Kory Cassel View Post
    I cannot speak to numbers in the world as a whole, but in the US the Hobbyist woodworker VASTLY outnumbers the professional.
    I wonder how many of them go on to make a career out of it? Is it possible in the US to start a furniture making company without any formal training or having acquired certificates/diplomas from a state recognised trades school to let people know you know what you're doing?

  11. #86
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    Jessica,

    Seems to me this entire session of witty banter is based on a misconception on your part. This is not the "I'm a professional woodworker, all bow to my greatness forum", it's Saw Mill Creek, a forum of hobbyist woodworkers. While there are a few professionals here, that is not the forum's mandate. You might consider joining (or starting) the "I'm a professional woodworker, all bow to my greatness forum" and check in from time to time to let us know how that is going for you.

    To your point, in America, Hobby Woodworkers do vastly outnumber professionals, no question. Why? One only has to look to our Bureau of Labor statistics to find the answer


    Quick Facts: Woodworkers
    2017 Median Pay $30,850 per year
    $14.83 per hour
    Typical Entry-Level Education High school diploma or equivalent
    Work Experience in a Related Occupation None
    On-the-job Training See How to Become One
    Number of Jobs, 2016 263,500
    Job Outlook, 2016-26 1% (Little or no change)
    Employment Change, 2016-26 2,700

    In America, most people want more for themselves than a subsistence level wage. Americans as a whole don't value the skilled trades like they once did. So, to devote yourself to a skill that is not valued in the marketplace just doesn't make sense. Certainly there are people who can and do find a way to make it, but they are the exceptions, not the rule. I was one of them myself back in the 90s when I started Independence Tool. I know of what I speak. It's a much better plan to have a day job, and do what you love in your spare time (for fun and profit) than to experience a life of low pay, stress and wages to live the dream.

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessica de Boer View Post
    @ Derek Cohen: I understand what you're saying. It's just that David Charlesworth said he made a large contribution to "the woodworking community". That's a very broad, generalising statement and to me it seemed as though he was saying there's a global community that has been influenced by Swarz. I got a little carried away by pointing out this is not the case.
    I get this. I am not a professional woodworker, but I am a professional other. I take pride in my work, and that I earned the right to do it. There are no short cuts to the knowledge, the standards, and the licence to practice. There are many wanna-bes, who believe that they do not need to do the long yards.

    I imagine that woodworking in Europe is different to the USA. I know that in Germany one needs a Master's degree for accreditation to work. I suspect it was the same for you. This is a serious subject. And the wrong forum for it.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    This is a serious subject. And the wrong forum for it.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    You are right and I will shut up about it.

  14. #89
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    I had no idea my post about Chris Schwarz would evolve into this string.
    I was just stating that I admire his work and am pleased he is still round.
    Last edited by lowell holmes; 12-16-2018 at 10:38 PM.

  15. #90
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    Would have been just as bad..if you had said Paul Sellers instead.....

    The views from those tall Ivory Towers some reside in....would be a lot better if their nose wasn't getting in the way, as they were looking down....

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