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Thread: Chris Swarz surfaced at Highland Woodworking.

  1. #166
    Several posts in this very long thread struck me as almost apologizing for the reaction folks had to Jessica's posts. Not sure if you guys mean it like that or if I'm misinterpreting you. Please forgive me if I've got all of you wrong. I'd like to circle back and clarify a little. For me, it wasn't the point that Jessica was making that inflamed some of the reaction early in this thread. It was the confrontational choice of her words, repeated more and more emphatically in each of her subsequent posts. At one point, there was also an undertone of what I (personally) took as anti-Americanism, which was amplified in another (overseas?) poster's response. Some of that was subsequently deleted. Like a lot of things, "it's not what you say, it's how you say it."

    I give Jessica great credit for having the guts to back off when she realized what had happened (see post #88). From her later posts, it sounds like the initial topic just hit a sore spot with her - probably for the reasons you cite here. She's a skilled artisan with lots of formal training. I love seeing her work. She also has phenomenal english fluency. (That catches my attention because I'm horrible with languages.)

    Fred
    Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 12-20-2018 at 9:12 AM.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  2. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Edwin Santos View Post
    I should let Charles speak for himself, but what I interpret from his post is that the choices you reference are coming with greater and greater sacrifice than ever before. Or stated differently, the price of the choice is rising. It's really a shame, but it seems to be the way the jungle is evolving.

    I know a guy who decided to chuck the corporate world to pursue his dream of metalworking art. After a year or so of this, he and his family were miserable from the financial pressure and you know what? He stopped loving metalworking. Neither this guy nor his family were the types I would call money hungry or greedy, but the sacrifices and constant pressure hurt all the same.
    Like I say, it's a shame, but simply pursuing what you love may not be as realistic as it should be.

    Sometimes I look at this through the lens of a parent. None of us wants to see our kids struggle. I'm tempted to tell my kids to just pursue what you love, but the Dad in me worries about them being conspired to a life of hardship so I'm advising them to think with their head as well as their heart in terms of a career choice.

    Are there artisan hand tool woodworkers who can do it and make a good living? You bet, and some of them are here on this forum. But my hat's off to them because I think they're in the minority who are beating the odds. It's possible to beat the stock market, and it's possible to walk out of a Las Vegas casino a winner, but the odds are not with you. If you're plying a trade that broader society doesn't value as much as we wish it did, the odds are not with you either.

    All this said, I think it would work if a person's personal situation supports it i.e. spousal income, inherited wealth, living in a low cost location, supplemental income, hooking into a good market for your products, etc. Without any of these advantages, it's a tough call... As I say, the cost of the choice is what's escalating.
    I for one am cheering on those who make that choice, but I wouldn't recommend it to my kids.
    This is very well put Edwin. All good thoughts. Thanks.
    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  3. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    Mark, this and some of your earlier posts struck me as almost apologizing for the reaction folks had to Jessica's posts. Not sure if you mean it like that or if I'm misinterpreting you. Please forgive me if I've got you wrong Sir. I'd like to circle back and clarify a little. For me, it wasn't the point that Jessica was making that inflamed some of the reaction early in this thread. It was the confrontational choice of her words, repeated more and more emphatically in each of her subsequent posts. At one point, there was also an undertone of what I (personally) took as anti-Americanism, which was amplified in another (overseas?) poster's response. Some of that was subsequently deleted. Like a lot of things, "it's not what you say, it's how you say it."

    I give Jessica great credit for having the guts to back off when she realized what had happened (see post #88). From her later posts, it sounds like the initial topic just hit a sore spot with her - probably for the reasons you cite here. She's a skilled artisan with lots of formal training. I love seeing her work. She also has phenomenal english fluency. (That catches my attention because I'm horrible with languages.)

    Fred
    I agree tone is important but it is often difficult to read and misread on internet postings. I think that many non American’s posts are not so much anti-American but anti American exceptionalism which is often so prevalent. On topic I have followed and enjoyed Schwarz and others like him as a hobbyist and appreciate all that they have brought to our wonderful hobby.
    Last edited by David Silverson; 12-20-2018 at 9:26 AM.

  4. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by David Silverson View Post
    I agree tone is important but it is often difficult to read and misread on internet postings. I think that many non American’s posts are not so much anti-American but anti American exceptionalism which is often so prevalent. On topic I have followed and enjoyed Schwarz and others like him as a hobbyist and appreciate all that they have brought to our wonderful hobby.
    Thanks David. That may all apply here. I could only speak for myself and my own initial reaction.
    Fred

    Edit: I just realized David responded to my initial post where I mentioned Mark specifically. I subsequently corrected that because I didn't intend to single-out Mark.
    Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 12-20-2018 at 9:53 AM. Reason: Goofed
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  5. #170
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Broadview Heights, OH
    Posts
    711
    Fred,

    I don't think you are alone. I had the same reaction, and judging from the many folks who PMd me, many others did as well. Having said that, seems like this thread has run it's course.

  6. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    Fred,

    I don't think you are alone. I had the same reaction, and judging from the many folks who PMd me, many others did as well. Having said that, seems like this thread has run it's course.
    I definitely agree Pete.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  7. #172
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    New England area
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    588
    I get irritated with those woodworker/writers/teachers who make it sound as if they're jutting their jaw into the winds of modernity when somebody else is paying, or already payed, for the privilege of them doing so. It's disingenuous. Not all are guilty of this, but enough are. If mama is covering the family's nut, you aren't jutting your jaw into the winds of anything but wishful thinking. Maybe acknowledge this by cutting back on the treacly philosophical prose a little.
    Last edited by Charles Guest; 12-20-2018 at 1:38 PM.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hepler View Post
    I think your point is how hard it is to even clear a median income as a custom furniture maker.
    It really isn't that hard, at least not in Germany, France, the Netherlands or Belgium (especially Belgium). I have 3 people working for me full time and I pay them a good salary. I think the mistake a lot of furniture makers make is that they only want to make exclusive custom furniture but you also have to be willing to take on other work. Not too long ago I landed a big job for a hotel to make new cabinets, night stands, closets and tables. Not exactly exciting work and it can get repetitive but it paid the bills and then some. Exclusive, custom furniture isn't something that you do every day so have to find things to fill the gaps.

  9. #174
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio
    Posts
    4,731
    Anyone who can get 12 pages of post about them on here has made an impact on woodworking. Like it or not.

    I live in Cincinnati the home of Popular Woodworking Magazine and Chris Schwarz.
    I have talked to him many times. He is a very likable guy. In my opinion he is a guy who loves woodworking. Does research on the subject and writes about it to share his knowledge. Been to events where he had his Anarchist’s Tool Chest on display full of tools. Just let anyone pick up a tool and look them over. How can you not like that?
    Kinda getting a laugh out of all of this.

    tool chest.jpgtool chest (3).jpg
    "Remember back in the day, when things were made by hand, and people took pride in their work?"
    - Rick Dale

  10. #175
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    Jul 2015
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    Broadview Heights, OH
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    711
    But Dave, he's not a professional, so nothing he has done has any value or importance. He is to be vilified and looked down upon as someone who is merely an INTERLOPER in the New World Woodworking Order. I'm sure they throw darts at his likeness when the Professional Cabal meets to hold their important deliberations.

    I'm only kidding...or am I?

  11. #176
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Clarks Summit PA
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    The real world artisans are authentic. They are professionals who share their information with the hobby woodworker because they love the craft. They are the grass roots. I admire & respect them. The “celebrities” are very entertaining, informative, & valuable, as many have pointed out in the previous pages. They ( except for a highly skilled, generous Englishman ) do not answer my tough hand tool construction challenges I post on this forum. The artisans do. I am thankful.

  12. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    But Dave, he's not a professional, so nothing he has done has any value or importance. He is to be vilified and looked down upon as someone who is merely an INTERLOPER in the New World Woodworking Order. I'm sure they throw darts at his likeness when the Professional Cabal meets to hold their important deliberations.

    I'm only kidding...or am I?
    Kidding, no.
    Fanning flames, yes.
    Last edited by Lee Schierer; 12-20-2018 at 7:46 PM. Reason: personal attack removed

  13. #178
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    Jul 2015
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    Broadview Heights, OH
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    711
    Edwin,

    I like the emphasize the absurd with absurdity. And besides, to fan flames there must already be a fire!

  14. #179
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Coffee City, Texas
    Posts
    169
    I'm curious, Warren, Jessica, do you refer to yourselves as 'artisans' or is that Mark's word? Is it only the single income stream 'professional', or can people who also make fine furniture be considered 'artisan'? Are there any craftsmen that you respect even if they do not meet the requirement of subsisting solely on profit earned from their woodworking? Do all craftsmen require a formal training to be an 'artisan'? I would like more dialog from the professional crowd about what it means to be professional and why Chris Schwarz doesn't matter.
    Dojo Kun, 1: Be humble and polite.

  15. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lehnert View Post
    Anyone who can get 12 pages of post about them on here has made an impact on woodworking. Like it or not.

    I live in Cincinnati the home of Popular Woodworking Magazine and Chris Schwarz.
    I have talked to him many times. He is a very likable guy. In my opinion he is a guy who loves woodworking. Does research on the subject and writes about it to share his knowledge. Been to events where he had his Anarchist’s Tool Chest on display full of tools. Just let anyone pick up a tool and look them over. How can you not like that?
    Kinda getting a laugh out of all of this.

    tool chest.jpgtool chest (3).jpg
    Good post Dave. Thanks for sharing your first hand experiences with CS.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

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