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Thread: Spruce

  1. #61
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    Sep 2015
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    Canton, NY
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    So the sharpening jig came yesterday. I spent about and hour and a half messing with it and trying to sharpen my 4 chisels. It did not work on the 1/4 inch. It just wouldn't grab it properly. From half inch up, it grabbed them, but no writing anywhere to tell me what protrusion for what angle. So I set it to the angle that came on the chisels. I pulled out my fresh package of wet/dry sand paper and went to town on them starting from 220 grit to 400 to 600 grit. Now I can see very small scratches in the face and on the back of the chisels. I try to shave with it and nothing. I try to cut a piece of paper and the paper folds and rips but doesnt get sliced. Do I need to go to a finer grit of paper or do I need to adjust my angle or am I just screwing up somehow?

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    Ok, my basic breakdown method no 1:

    The chisel might have come with a large 25 deg bevel. That's a 'primary' bevel. I maintain a flat primary bevel with a coarse grit.

    I use a micro-bevel added to this. The secondary bevel I use is 30 deg that's a little steeper. If you have nothing to set the guide with, just eyeball 5 deg. 29 deg or 31 deg will work quite well.

    When you get your back polished and your primary bevel ground all the way to the tip, set the chisel in the guide at 30 deg to form the micro-bevel. It should take very few strokes (maybe two) on 220 grit to form a small 1/32" band across the edge. You want a super small secondary bevel using this method.

    Leave the chisel locked in the guide and move on through the grits. Start each new grit level by pulling the edge back a time or two so you don't run over the wire edge and fold it under the chisel.

    After you finish your finest grit on the bevel side, take the chisel out of the guide and once again pull back on the finest grit, this time on the back of the chisel being very careful to keep the chisel flat on the stone. I overhang the edge and pull back onto the abrasive when I do this. Any remaining wire edge left should peel away with a stroke or two. Test by running your thumbnail along the edge. If it catches anywhere, there is still some wire edge left that you can chase off pulling back on the back side of the chisel.

    Maintaining the primary bevel with the guide is wasteful to the life of your chisel, so keeping the micro-bevel real small is the key to this type of sharpening. A good grinder set-up and hollow ground edges will be the way to go for longevity of your tools (you have to remove less steel as you maintain your edges), but the flat ground double bevel is doable by hand with just a honing guide.

    There are ton's of ways to go about this. If this doesn't work for you, others here can suggest something different.
    Dojo Kun, 1: Be humble and polite.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    Make a stop block. With a guide, it is very important to get the angle set consistently, less so that the angle be precisely 30 degrees or whatever.

    Are you getting a wire edge? As the chisel is drawn back across the abrasive, the material right at the tip deforms and sort of bends back towards the back side of the chisel. At coarser grits you can feel it easily with your finger. If you are not getting a wire edge, you are likely not abrading all the way to the edge.

    https://www.finewoodworking.com/2012...a-honing-guide

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
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    Silicon Valley, CA
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    You are probably not getting all the way to the edge.

    Generally feeling for a burr is the way to confirm this, but when first starting it can be difficult to be confident it your technique. This is where the "Sharpie Trick" (and that loupe you poo-pooed ) can help. To get better understanding of what's happening at the edge, getting a better look is important (since most of us learn visually.) Coloring the entire bevel area plus a little and the same distance on the back with a Sharpie (or equivalent), letting it dry, and then taking a couple sharpening strokes will remove the ink and highlight where you are contacting the stone. (A bright light & magnification help too!)

    You might see a band at the top of the bevel, your angle is slightly too shallow. In this case, you'll probably see a dark band right at the cutting edge. Either your angle is off a little, you didn't grind deep enough, or there is a micro-bevel and you are grinding the face above it. (See Kory's message.)

  5. #65
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    Sep 2007
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    I pulled out my fresh package of wet/dry sand paper and went to town on them starting from 220 grit to 400 to 600 grit. Now I can see very small scratches in the face and on the back of the chisels. I try to shave with it and nothing. I try to cut a piece of paper and the paper folds and rips but doesnt get sliced. Do I need to go to a finer grit of paper or do I need to adjust my angle or am I just screwing up somehow?
    As to whether or not errors are being made, without seeing what you are doing and achieving it is impossible to tell.

    As others mentioned, one sign that you are on the right track is getting the burr on the back of the item you are sharpening. It should be across the full width. As said before, it will be less noticeable with the finer grits. It should be detectible with a finger nail.

    My advice is to not try to create a secondary bevel or other "edge tricks" until you are able to consistently produce an acceptable edge with a single bevel.

    In another discussion of sharpening someone claimed they could create a mirror edge with which they could shave using 80 grit abrasive sheets. There was never any evidence to support the veracity of his statement.

    In my opinion, 600 grit may produce an edge that is capable of doing some work, but it isn't going to be a razor sharp edge many woodworkers prefer on their hand tools.

    This chart will give some idea of the grit size of different media used in the quest for a sharper blade:

    Stone, Belt, Paper Grit Comparison 2013.pdf

    Abrasive sheets in the 1000 & 2000 grit range are often available at some auto supply stores or auto paint suppliers.

    Lee Valley carries micron sheets:

    http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...04&cat=1,43072

    Using abrasive sheets is a quick and cheap way to get started sharpening. Over time it can get to be more expensive and more of a hassle than having an investment in stones.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    In my opinion, 600 grit may produce an edge that is capable of doing some work, but it isn't going to be a razor sharp edge many woodworkers prefer on their hand tools.
    jtk
    Kyle,
    I agree with Jim that 600 grit is fairly coarse. It will be fine for chopping mortises in your first pair of sawhorses, but I sharpen all my edges regardless of their intended use to 8000 grit on a norton water stone. This leaves a bright and clear mirror polish. Some will go higher but I haven't felt the need.

    Different strokes for different folks on the micro bevel idea. For me, a good polish on the large surface of a single bevel is a much tougher proposition than honing a small secondary bevel. David Charlesworth I believe teaches a triple bevel on chisels. And then there's Paul Sellers teaching the rolled appleseed edge. Many different ways to get you to a good sharp edge.
    Dojo Kun, 1: Be humble and polite.

  7. #67
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    Sep 2015
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    Canton, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kory Cassel View Post
    Kyle,
    I agree with Jim that 600 grit is fairly coarse. It will be fine for chopping mortises in your first pair of sawhorses, but I sharpen all my edges regardless of their intended use to 8000 grit on a norton water stone. This leaves a bright and clear mirror polish. Some will go higher but I haven't felt the need.

    Different strokes for different folks on the micro bevel idea. For me, a good polish on the large surface of a single bevel is a much tougher proposition than honing a small secondary bevel. David Charlesworth I believe teaches a triple bevel on chisels. And then there's Paul Sellers teaching the rolled appleseed edge. Many different ways to get you to a good sharp edge.
    So after trying again tonight, I got the same results and ruined my sandpaper. Granted I did try again before I logged on tonight. So steps for tomorrow after work is go get paper going up to at least 2k grit. Finish Christmas shopping. Sharpen only on the pull stroke.

    Any tips on how to keep even pressure on the chisel with one hand?

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
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    Coffee City, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Foster View Post
    So after trying again tonight, I got the same results and ruined my sandpaper. Granted I did try again before I logged on tonight. So steps for tomorrow after work is go get paper going up to at least 2k grit. Finish Christmas shopping. Sharpen only on the pull stroke.

    Any tips on how to keep even pressure on the chisel with one hand?
    Hey Kyle,
    It's a little harder than the youtube demonstrations make it look but you'll get there. You don't need to sharpen only with the pull stroke the whole time, just for the first one or two strokes to make sure you don't roll over the wire edge. A problem you may be having is what's called 'dubbing'. It's common when using sandpaper that it can curl or bubble up a bit in front of your edge when flattening the back and cause a tiny rounding of the tip. It doesn't take much of this to make your chisel butter knife dull until you grind past it on the primary bevel. It's not worth trying to re-flatten the back as you would have to remove a lot of material or change the geometry of your flat back to remove it on that side. Just work your primary bevel until you get a good wire edge going. It's very important to start off that way, flat back all the way to the tip and primary bevel ground out all the way until you have a wire edge. After the chisel is 'initialized' like that, honing a secondary bevel takes no time at all. I use both hands on a honing guide, thumbs in back and fingers wrapped around and putting light pressure near the tip of the blade. If you can glue or tape your sandpaper down, that might help some. In the future I would recommend PSA rolls for the coarse work such as Porter Cable Stikit or similar. It's expensive but the glued down paper won't dub your edge like loose sandpaper sheets will. You can get good results from loose sheets but be extra vigilant about it curling or bubbling up when working on your chisel backs. Protect the tip of that flat back like Fort Knox. Once initialized only ever touch the back with your finest grit. Whether you choose to grind out the primary bevel each time or just maintain it to keep the secondary bevel small is a matter of choice. It is however very difficult to get a consistent result on the bevel side if you start letting the secondary bevel get large (the angles get weird and hard to replicate with the honing guide). Wow, sorry that was so long winded! Good luck.
    Dojo Kun, 1: Be humble and polite.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Different strokes for different folks on the micro bevel idea.
    My suggestion is for a person to learn how to get to sharp first. Once that is down, then try all the tricks knowing what result one is trying to achieve.

    If the edge is getting dubbed as mentioned by Kory, attempting a micro bevel is not necessarily going to be a cure.

    My approach has been learn to get an edge sharp, then learn another way to get an edge sharp, then another and so on.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Canton, NY
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    I gave up on scary sharp after putting in hours and still not being able to cut a piece of paper. I went and got an oilstone sold by Stanley. It is a medium/ fine stone with aluminum oxide grit. Tonight was the first time I used it and within 10 minutes I had a wire edge started. That did it for me, I am abandoning scary sharp for good and sticking with stones. My one question with this is: how much oil will this stone take before it is "seasoned"? Is there any special steps to do with this being a brand new stone?

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
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    What I have been using....for years...
    IMG_7173 (640x480).jpg
    My oil stone grits stop at 600-1000 grit. No, I do NOT spend "hours" sharpening ONE item....more like...10 minutes. per chisel, or plane iron.
    IMG_7172 (640x480).jpg
    This one was done up to 2000 grit...then stropped...white "board" is a 12 x 12 floor tile, selected because it was smooth and flat. That chisel will shave a beard....or, pare Ash...

    BTW: You can buy up to 3,000 grit....I usually buy the assortment pack....goes up to 2,500 grit.
    Last edited by steven c newman; 12-19-2018 at 8:30 PM.

  12. #72
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    Sep 2015
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    Canton, NY
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    What I am saying is that after hours of sharpening 1 chisel and trying about a dozen different ways of doing it, not a single method got it close to being able to cut paper. I got frustrated and bought an oil stone to try a different method. It works for me. I was looking for what you need to do to a brand new stone if anything. Stanley is a bit lacking in the info department on this guy.

  13. #73
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    Mar 2015
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    Kyle, to my knowledge you do not need to soak or season an oil stone. Just use it. When mine get cruddy, I rinse them with hot water and scrub with a stiff brush. Others might have more insight.

  14. #74
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    Apr 2013
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    Seems like the stanley oil stone is similar to a Norton India stone. If so that's a pretty nice stone, and you don't need to do anything to it before use. Just make sure you use honing oil, enough to keep the metal swarf suspended and out of the pores of the stones. And wipe the oil off after you're done. These kinds of stones can clog and become slow cutting if you don't use enough oil or don't clean them.

    The stone will be fairly coarse- very good for establishing your edge geometry. But for woodworking you want a little more polish- one thing you can do is take a piece of mdf (really it could be any kind of wood or particle board, but mdf is perfect) and apply some polishing compound like Autosol, or stropping compound if you have it. Then just use pull strokes and polish up the back and bevel with that. It won't be the best edge ever but it will do just fine for 90% of woodworking tasks, and you can get fancier later.

  15. #75
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    Sep 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hazelwood View Post
    Seems like the stanley oil stone is similar to a Norton India stone. If so that's a pretty nice stone, and you don't need to do anything to it before use. Just make sure you use honing oil, enough to keep the metal swarf suspended and out of the pores of the stones. And wipe the oil off after you're done. These kinds of stones can clog and become slow cutting if you don't use enough oil or don't clean them.

    The stone will be fairly coarse- very good for establishing your edge geometry. But for woodworking you want a little more polish- one thing you can do is take a piece of mdf (really it could be any kind of wood or particle board, but mdf is perfect) and apply some polishing compound like Autosol, or stropping compound if you have it. Then just use pull strokes and polish up the back and bevel with that. It won't be the best edge ever but it will do just fine for 90% of woodworking tasks, and you can get fancier later.
    Awesome. Thank you for the information. I tried doing a quick Google for that info and found very little info on it. Maybe I had the wrong search terms.

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