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Thread: Electric cars

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Mattingley View Post
    I’ve been working with electric motors for over 30 years. Your point has great merit. But what does it cost to swap out the battery outside of a 5 warranty? I’ve swapped out motors in my own driveway for $1000. Could I do the same with a battery in a car???
    You might. I can't speak for Volts but 60 seconds of Google confirmed what I found previously about Priuses: $800-$1500, in your driveway. You can also replace individual cells. Those batteries (I'm amused that Toyota now calls it the "traction battery") last a long time. When we traded in our 2005 Prius recently it had 165,000 miles on it and would still get 50mpg on a good day. The battery was fine but repairing the air conditioning would have cost more than the car was worth.

  2. #107
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    ..Interesting juxtaposition of the modern car towing the antique auto. In the early days of the automobile it really was a competition as to whether the electric vehicle would win out or the gasoline vehicle. Women drivers disdained the gasoline vehicles because they didn't like cranking the engine in their nice clothes. The advent of Kettering's electric starter changed that .. and then, when Henry Ford started selling cars with gasoline engines for a third of the price of those with electric motors, the die was cast, until the 21st century.

  3. #108
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    I think the PHEV batteries are designed and operated differently than the all-electric batteries, and will last much longer. My business partner has a Chevy Volt with over 200,000 miles on it. No significant battery decay as of yet.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art Mann View Post
    It would take a long time to gather all the information that has come to light since the report was released but a few things stick out in my mind. The report assumes that the temperature rise over the time period in question will be 15 degrees F. That number is higher than the worst case scenario published by the IPCC. The number is based on predictions from computer models that have already been proven to be spectacularly wrong on previous occasions. Another assumption is that coal consumption will resume its upward use trajectory. In reality, natural gas, which releases much less carbon into the atmosphere, is rapidly taking the place of coal for economic rather than ecological reasons. The report also implies that current weather conditions are out of the normal and will continue to get worse, which will profoundly affect the economy. The reality is that current weather conditions are not very different from previous centuries and have not been getting any worse so far. All this information is available on line and in most cases it comes directly from government sources. If you dig enough, most of the report turns out to be guesses derived from a near impossible combination of worst case scenarios. It is not difficult to understand and does not require the knowledge of experts as Dan assumes. Sometimes you just have to look at the obvious.
    I've actually read the report. The reports on the report that you are reading are cherry picking and exaggeration of what it actually says. The report is based almost entirely on predictions consistent with the IPCC. Essentially every impact assessment is outlined for scenarios with constrained temperature increases (4.5F by end of century) and high (9 to 12F). I did not see any tied to 15F.
    Last edited by Steve Demuth; 12-15-2018 at 9:09 AM.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Beitz View Post
    All I can say is this is a good read... Keep it coming. I love playing with electric.
    I put time into fuel cells and I don't see that happening ... Waiting for solar cells on the roof tops of cars.
    The Toyota Prius has/had an option for a solar panel. However, I believe it was just for powering a vent fan to keep the vehicle cooler in the sun.

    A typical car roof could likely generate about 600 watts from solar at peak. The Chevy Bolt has a 60KWh battery that would take 100+ hours to charge in the sun. One could also put solar on the roof and trunk, but I doubt the cost to do full solar on a car would have enough value for most owners for what it would cost. Solar efficiency is slowly getting higher so it will be more and more practical.

  6. #111
    I will stick with a pre emissions diesel or gas truck for as long as possible. Mining and producing lithium batteries is a horrible process. Not to mention disposing of them.

    There is a 1909 studebaker electric car across the street,neat novelty

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darcy Warner View Post
    I will stick with a pre emissions diesel or gas truck for as long as possible. Mining and producing lithium batteries is a horrible process. Not to mention disposing of them.

    There is a 1909 studebaker electric car across the street,neat novelty
    What are you talking about?

    Vast majority of lithium salts are extracted from brine pools etc. Mining ore is expensive to the point where it simply not competitive and doesn't really work. Extraction is also far less harmful then oil sands. Is it environmentally benign, no. Ideally the lithium batteries are even more green if charged with solar, wind, non emission sources/not from a fracking site that turns the landscape into a desolate sight. Lithium battery components can be recycled, including the lithium. Used electric car batteries can function as energy storage. People jump on the word lithium because it's conveniently in the name and everyone knows what a rechargeable battery is. So random blanket statements that make no sense or have any fact become quite popular, as do ideas of so called mining of lithium. If one were to actually take a look at negative factors to the environment in batteries then take a look at cobalt, copper etc mining. One can start an argument there, and also to the future of lithium with growth demand and the possibility of having to mine for it to keep up.

    The fact that it can use renewable non emission energy and can have its components recycled or repurposed makes the oil and gas side of things quite dirty, you can't really recycle your truck fumes. Maybe some coal rolled kippers like out of the Grand Tour and you get some use out of the fumes. Once the gas is burnt its gone. Extracting and producing gas is a horrible process. Not to mention disposing, transportation, and the use of it. It has allowed for humanity to leap forward. I love the sound of a good engine. Being in a skilled driver's car when they do that perfect shift. But eventually things progress.
    Last edited by Vincent Tai; 12-19-2018 at 4:05 PM.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Combs View Post
    I would really like to see a 'total cost of ownership' comparison over 1-10 years for a few examples of both ICE and selected 'electric', battery, hybrid etc.

    that should include cost of vehicle, gas, electric costs, home charging installation, service, battery replacement, oil changes etc. As stated total cost of ownership, not selected points, but the whole package.

    I think there will be a lot of surprises for some people when considering upgrading to electric. Installation of a 240v charging station by a pro can really eat into the projected savings for instance.

    Adding PV panels for that purpose sounds great, until you price package, controls, panels, installation etc.
    It cost about 100 bucks to install our 50 amp outlet (which is used by my drill press, welder and our car). We replaced a car that was going to get replaced anyway with something similar. we save about about $100 per month in fuel cost when you factor in the 1 dollar a day it costs to charge it. We have paid for a couple oil changes and had no other issues, saving the cost of many extra oil changes. The brakes are about 95% after 70k miles because of regen braking. Volt batteries are showing very little degradation even after 300,000 miles. Your Ice would likely be wore out by then anyway so no extra cost over and ICE car when it comes replacement time.

    I think you may be the one that is surprised.

  9. #114
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    Kelley blue book publishes the five year ownership cost, which is the most comprehesive estimate I have seen. From what I can tell, hybrid/electric cars are a bit more expensive then comparable conventional cars. Not sure if that takes into account the subsidies, or if those are even still in place.

  10. #115
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    Somewhat old (in internet terms) but I found this interesting:



    Also the Tesla 3 is the "safest" car ever tested by NHTSA

    https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/08...a-pull-it-off/
    Last edited by Van Huskey; 12-24-2018 at 2:31 AM.
    Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.

    Deep thought for the day:

    Your bandsaw weighs more when you leave the spring compressed instead of relieving the tension.

  11. #116
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    It would seem if Tesla are the safest cars, they should have low insurance rates.

    I have heard from some Tesla owners their insurance cost is about the same as a Porsche. I have also heard repairs (say, from an accident) are very expensive, and take a really long time.

    Jim
    Last edited by Jim Falsetti; 12-24-2018 at 10:56 AM. Reason: Formating fix

  12. #117
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    Jim, insurance rates are set by a variety of factors. "Safe" is great for liability and hospitalization rates, but "expensive to repair" is what sends comprehensive and collision coverage skyward. The latter is the reason that Tesla is expensive to insure.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  13. #118
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    Many people do not realize a Tesla is a super fast super car. Would they be surprised to find it cost more to insure a Ferrari? For road driving a Tesla is faster then a Ferrai. I believe it is the faster production car 0-60MPH. I have read the problem with a Tesla is that there is no indication to most drivers that you are driving too fast. An ICE car screams at you at full throttle and most drivers back off a bit. Claim is many tesla drivers ignore the slight feedback and over load the motors and cause premature problems. How many here use full throttle for every single start form a full stop?
    electric motors are different then ICE power. They can be overloaded by quite a bit for short periods of time. A ICE engine has a top horsepower and no more. A motor can easily produce double the safe cruising power for say three seconds and be up to 60MPH in those three seconds.

  14. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Falsetti View Post

    I have heard from some Tesla owners their insurance cost is about the same as a Porsche. I have also heard repairs (say, from an accident) are very expensive, and take a really long time.

    Jim
    That is true. My boss and I both moved from Porsches to Teslas and our insurance rates were comparable to what we were paying before. Interestingly, it costs more to insure my Model S than the X even though the X is about $20k more as configured. The insurance agent swears it has nothing to do with the Model S being red, but somehow I don't believe them. :-)

    I have read horror stories of wait times for accident repairs on the Tesla forums and sure hope I don't have to go through that ever. A few years ago, my BMW was in the shop for 6 months because it had carbon fiber damage that it suffered when it got rear-ended by a distracted driver. None of the local dealerships knew how to fix the damage and my insurance company didn't want to total it and shopped around for a fix forever. So, I guess it's not just the Teslas that can sit in the shop forever.

  15. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    I have read the problem with a Tesla is that there is no indication to most drivers that you are driving too fast. An ICE car screams at you at full throttle and most drivers back off a bit. Claim is many tesla drivers ignore the slight feedback and over load the motors and cause premature problems. How many here use full throttle for every single start form a full stop?
    There are many options in Teslas to control acceleration and speed:
    1. You can set max speed
    2. You can set audible chime and/or visual feedback if going over "x" (configurable) miles over speed limit
    3. You can set acceleration to "chill mode" (that's what it is called), or ludicrous mode for the P-cars (can't do this on a cold battery though)
    4. You can forget that you have a lead foot! :-)

    You are right that people accelerating quickly all the time will destroy their Teslas prematurely and that's a big thing to consider if anyone is looking to buy used Teslas.

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