Electric cars

[Jim Becker]

I, for one, am so happy that Tesla federal tax credits ended yesterday and we can finally move past this argument! It will now be interesting to see if sales drops.

If I'm not mistaken, there is still a tax credit for Tesla but it's now lower and reduces until it's gone in a year or so. The Federal EV tax credit is setup such that it's based on volume for a given manufacturer. Once they sell x number of vehicles, the tax credit reduces and heads to zero. Tesla hit that point in late 2018.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

I haven't read this thread until now. My LOML and I saw the ICE'ing articles in the paper too and were talking about various experiences we have seen. We both find it shocking how childish and rude people are becoming as a whole and how there is a perception that certain types of owners are snobs. We have a new neighbor that is into Rolling Coal.

My LOML and I both work hard and spend our money wisely. We do own quite a few vehicles, with 3 of them now vintage. I have owned my CJ5 for 29 years. We have a diesel tow rig, and trade off driving our high mpg Geo Metro we bought 10 years ago "dead" for $500 that only had a bad fuse. We have been toying with selling off a vehicle or two, along with one of the motorcycles and buying a new high mileage car. We have not decided which new (or used) vehicle we want to buy yet or even looked at prices.

We regularly deal with clueless and/or rude people blocking the single diesel pump while there are many spots available for them to use. We have both witnessed the station attendant run out and tell people to move away from the pump and point to a diesel waiting to get fuel. We have also witnessed a charging station at a restaurant in town being blocked by pickups when there are plenty of vacant spaces all around nearby.

We know several people who bought EV type cars and they have all been down-to-earth, polite folks who either liked the looks/features of the car or are retired and only do short errands into town. None of them are wealthy or out to save the world or force others against their will, but like doing their small part such as recycling.

We have toyed with getting a Tesla, as well as started to look at several other (diesel & unleaded fuel) cars that we like the looks of. We pay for fuel at the pumps, we have no problem to pay for a charge at a charging station. We both really like the look of the Tesla's but we have not researched them and we suspect a Tesla will not be right for our lifestyle.

What is really disheartening to read is if we do decide to buy a Tesla, how so many people are going to automatically going to assume my LOML and I are privileged, snobby owners who have money to burn and should be treated with disrespect and block our access to a charging station. Yes, there can be snobby people shopping at high end grocery stores, but there are also many people like me who will shop at those stores a few times a year in order to buy foods that are not available in the regular chain stores.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

If the tax incentive is trivial, then why is the government spending $7500 for the first 200,000 of from each company? Last time I checked that was $1.5 billion. a $billion here, A $billion there, and pretty soon it adds up to some real money. My objection to electric cars comes down to the government spending my tax money so that an arbitrary group of people, most of whom are already rich, get a $7500 discount on their new car.

Art, I think this incentive is more for the car company than the individuals. The car maker can mark up their price by $7500 and use that to offset startup costs in uncharted territory. Why is Tesla the only company to hit that 200k car mark even though their cars are priced 2-3x the price of other EVs (like from Nissan, BMW, GM)? I think a large factor to that is because Teslas can *almost* replace most gas cars because of their supercharger network. Also, this is a much better way for the government to invest to kickstart an industry than to just give $1.5 billion in tax breaks to a company. In any case, I am glad there is no longer the full federal tax credit for Teslas!

[Yathin Krishnappa]

If I'm not mistaken, there is still a tax credit for Tesla but it's now lower and reduces until it's gone in a year or so. The Federal EV tax credit is setup such that it's based on volume for a given manufacturer. Once they sell x number of vehicles, the tax credit reduces and heads to zero. Tesla hit that point in late 2018.

That's right Jim. It goes down to half this quarter, and half of that next before it fully goes away. I think Tesla prices will come down in the same percentages if they don't sell the same volume as previous quarters. :-)

[Darcy Warner]

Of course, no one "blocks" the diesel pumps in the same manner as parking in a spot and leaving your car for potentially hours at time. People pull up, use the pump and leave. If you have to wait a couple of minutes for someone else to use it before you can, that's a minor inconvenience at best. It isn't like someone parks their car in front of a pump and leaves to go shopping.

The heck they don't. Like I said, usually on the far outside and people say what they heck, I need to poop, order a sandwich and catch up with the cashier. It's really no different when there are 8 other pumps that only have gas that are not being used.

[Darcy Warner]

It's too bad some people feel like such small environmental steps entitle them to a feeling of moral superiority. It's silly, for sure.

That said, there also seems to be an almost irrational animosity towards EVs, even displayed by several on this thread. Someone derisively called them "little plug in cars", someone asserted that they were wildly unsafe (when exactly the opposite is true), several have said EV owners are "entitled", etc.

I don't get it. It's a car.

I think it's more a cultural issue. I suspect that some people feel like gas cans, oil rags, filling stations, carburetors, the smell of exhaust, etc, are things people associate with their culture. They understand it, it's familiar, feels "safe", etc. The idea of a whisper-quiet electric car with technology unknown to them, linked up wirelessly to Silicon Valley networks, driven by metro-sexual latte-sipping millenials is somehow offensive to their sense of culture, self, pride, etc.

Well, there is no doubt that EVs will be a dominant force in the future. So, find your skinny jeans and schedule that manicure appointment

I know a couple people with Tesla's. One with a first generation that is almost worthless now compared to what they are making now. They are cool cars, but a car is not a practical form of transportation for me. If someone made a 6 door truck with a 12 foot flatbed I would be all over it. I don't see an electric truck ever being practical for me. I make too many trips that are 10 hours driving straight there, an hour loading and 10 hours straight back. No way to charge something when I am loading out.

[Dan Friedrichs]

If the tax incentive is trivial, then why is the government spending $7500 for the first 200,000 of from each company? Last time I checked that was $1.5 billion. a $billion here, A $billion there, and pretty soon it adds up to some real money. My objection to electric cars comes down to the government spending my tax money so that an arbitrary group of people, most of whom are already rich, get a $7500 discount on their new car.

Ah, so you object to the gas cars that were made with with $81B in bailout money, too?

[Van Huskey]

If the tax incentive is trivial, then why is the government spending $7500 for the first 200,000 of from each company? Last time I checked that was $1.5 billion. a $billion here, A $billion there, and pretty soon it adds up to some real money. My objection to electric cars comes down to the government spending my tax money so that an arbitrary group of people, most of whom are already rich, get a $7500 discount on their new car.

It is simply to stimulate an industry that the people in charge of allocating tax revenue believes will benefit the nation and/or state. Electric vehicles will be the norm at some point and it appears to be quicker than I would have thought 10 or even 5 years ago. Cars are a huge economic engine and if we allow other countries to race ahead of us in the development of this industry our economy as a whole will suffer LONG term. In my adult life I have paid over $100K in property taxes allocated specifically for the public school system that I have never used a penny of, however, I have never complained since it is in the best interest of our society as a whole to have an educated population. I have zero issues subsidizing the stimulation of the growth of what will be one of the largest industries in the world.


One to a separate topic that has popped up in the thread. The major paradigm shift in OTR trucking will be when electric trucks become autonomous. When this happens even if the trucks maximum range at maximum load is only 250 miles and takes even 2 hours to recharge it will still be able to log more miles than a human driver per day. It is also important to note few trucks actually run at DOT max weight since most types of loads cube out before weighing out. Any significant reduction in ton/mile in the trucking industry will reduce the cost of the vast majority of consumer goods, it also has a cumulative effect because often the raw materials need to be trucked also.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room is electric vehicles are one of those subjects that a significant number of people don't come to their conclusions based on logic. People on both sides of the issue come to a conclusion THEN look for what they can consider a logical set of steps to reach their predetermined conclusion. I feel very comfortable saying that if the economic and performance feasibility had reached the current point 25 years or more in the past it would not be nearly so divisive. If we were just now at early 1960's ability to send humans to space the US would not be the first ones there, even if we had the initial advantage in the science. We have the ability and the position to become the world leader in electric vehicle manufacturing if we don't take advantage of it "we" will regret it.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

I haven't read this thread until now. My LOML and I saw the ICE'ing articles in the paper too and were talking about various experiences we have seen. We both find it shocking how childish and rude people are becoming as a whole and how there is a perception that certain types of owners are snobs. We have a new neighbor that is into Rolling Coal.

My LOML and I both work hard and spend our money wisely. We do own quite a few vehicles, with 3 of them now vintage. I have owned my CJ5 for 29 years. We have a diesel tow rig, and trade off driving our high mpg Geo Metro we bought 10 years ago "dead" for $500 that only had a bad fuse. We have been toying with selling off a vehicle or two, along with one of the motorcycles and buying a new high mileage car. We have not decided which new (or used) vehicle we want to buy yet or even looked at prices.

We regularly deal with clueless and/or rude people blocking the single diesel pump while there are many spots available for them to use. We have both witnessed the station attendant run out and tell people to move away from the pump and point to a diesel waiting to get fuel. We have also witnessed a charging station at a restaurant in town being blocked by pickups when there are plenty of vacant spaces all around nearby.

We know several people who bought EV type cars and they have all been down-to-earth, polite folks who either liked the looks/features of the car or are retired and only do short errands into town. None of them are wealthy or out to save the world or force others against their will, but like doing their small part such as recycling.

We have toyed with getting a Tesla, as well as started to look at several other (diesel & unleaded fuel) cars that we like the looks of. We pay for fuel at the pumps, we have no problem to pay for a charge at a charging station. We both really like the look of the Tesla's but we have not researched them and we suspect a Tesla will not be right for our lifestyle.

What is really disheartening to read is if we do decide to buy a Tesla, how so many people are going to automatically going to assume my LOML and I are privileged, snobby owners who have money to burn and should be treated with disrespect and block our access to a charging station. Yes, there can be snobby people shopping at high end grocery stores, but there are also many people like me who will shop at those stores a few times a year in order to buy foods that are not available in the regular chain stores.

Thanks for posting this Mike. Good luck with choosing your new car. Also, I love the CJs. One of the first vehicles I ever drove was an old CJ-2A and would love to have one once again.

[Mike Henderson]

The 800 pound gorilla in the room is electric vehicles are one of those subjects that a significant number of people don't come to their conclusions based on logic. People on both sides of the issue come to a conclusion THEN look for what they can consider a logical set of steps to reach their predetermined conclusion. I feel very comfortable saying that if the economic and performance feasibility had reached the current point 25 years or more in the past it would not be nearly so divisive. If we were just now at early 1960's ability to send humans to space the US would not be the first ones there, even if we had the initial advantage in the science. We have the ability and the position to become the world leader in electric vehicle manufacturing if we don't take advantage of it "we" will regret it.

I think I remember that China has set a date of 2040 for all cars sold in China to be electric. What that does for Chinese auto manufacturers is guarantee a market for electric vehicles so the companies are willing to invest to design and manufacture electric cars. China has good reasons for doing this - Beijing and Shanghai have bad air pollution from cars and China wants to lead in electric vehicles.

It may wind up that the electric cars we finally buy in the US are made in China.

Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Usually a couple pumps at a station, usually placed where you can actually get to them with a truck and trailer. Usually always have a car parked in front of them while numerous other regular gas pumps are unattended.

I think you missed my point: all of the pump stations here also have a diesel hose/nozzle. If all the regular gas pumps are in use, yeah, you'll have to wait a bit, but so will anybody else wanting to buy gas.

As far as you being able to get your rig to a particular pump at a particular station, that's a separate issue. I'm not talking about stations that cater specifically to big trucks.

[Van Huskey]

It may wind up that the electric cars we finally buy in the US are made in China.

Mike

This is the outcome I would like to avoid. If we don't hold onto our competitive advantage China will truck stick* us like a running back on a free safety with his feet planted.

* dear Cam Newton I can use truck stick because I am a not a female reporter...

[Darcy Warner]

I think you missed my point: all of the pump stations here also have a diesel hose/nozzle. If all the regular gas pumps are in use, yeah, you'll have to wait a bit, but so will anybody else wanting to buy gas.

As far as you being able to get your rig to a particular pump at a particular station, that's a separate issue. I'm not talking about stations that cater specifically to big trucks.

You missed mine, never seen a station where they had both on every pump and I live in a farming stronghold where everything is diesel.

I'm sorry, but a truck and trailer isn't exactly a big rig.

No one designs any new station with a truck and trailer in mind.

I just saw a bank of Tesla charging stations last week that I can go block and take a selfie at. Woohoo

[Frederick Skelly]

I'll be the contrarian here. We all know ICE vehicles have plenty of additional pollutants that electrics don't (oil, antifreeze, transmission fluid, etc). But the electric car story isn't the answer to all problems from what I can see. I think that in most places, electric cars will be continue to be charged off the power grid. Which likely means power plants more than solar. (How many of us have solar panels - 20%?) So how much "going electric" really reduces pollution is still an open question, in my mind. And then there is battery disposal - another potential polluter. They can and do recycle car batteries. But those recycling operations will need to scale up too. I don't know whether hi-tech batteries leave any additional residual pollutants after recycling.

But with that all said, everyone I know who has a "regular guy"** type of electric car just loves it (Volt, etc). Which is promising to me - I'm a guy who likes lots of choices/options.

** I mention "regular guys" here because the handful of tesla drivers I've met have all seemed more interested in showing me how much money they have, than talking about why their electric car is so exciting. (Apologies to any tesla owners reading this who are exceptions to that.)

YMMV.
Fred

[Mike Henderson]

I'll be the contrarian here. We all know ICE vehicles have plenty of additional pollutants that electrics don't (oil, antifreeze, transmission fluid, etc). But the electric car story isn't the answer to all problems from what I can see. I think that in most places, electric cars will be continue to be charged off the power grid. Which likely means power plants more than solar. (How many of us have solar panels - 20%?) So how much "going electric" really reduces pollution is still an open question, in my mind. And then there is battery disposal - another potential polluter. They can and do recycle car batteries. But those recycling operations will need to scale up too. I don't know whether hi-tech batteries leave any additional residual pollutants after recycling.

But with that all said, everyone I know who has a "regular guy"** type of electric car just loves it (Volt, etc). Which is promising to me - I'm a guy who likes lots of choices/options.

** I mention "regular guys" here because the handful of tesla drivers I've met have all seemed more interested in showing me how much money they have, than talking about why their electric car is so exciting. (Apologies to any tesla owners reading this who are exceptions to that.)

YMMV.
Fred

Most electric cars will likely be charged off the electric grid. But the time cost of electricity will likely be adjusted to incent people to do it overnight when the demand on the grid is the lowest. That will help smooth out the demands on the non-renewable fuel generation units, and make them more efficient.

Also, capture of pollution is much easier when it's in a single place, such as a power generation unit.

Solar panels are not just for the person who purchased them. Solar panels generate the most electricity during the middle of the day, and most of those panels are putting power back into the grid, generating more than is needed by the homeowner at that time. That will help reduce the amount of fossil fuel generation needed during the middle of the day.

I expect we will have fossil or nuclear generation for a long time, but it will likely become a smaller percentage of the total power generated.

Mike