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Thread: Electric cars

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yonak Hawkins View Post
    Again, who's forcing what ? What am I missing ?
    I don't feel like a partisan on this issue. I drive a five year old focus that runs on regular gas. When I bought it I looked at the hybrids (I don't think there were any pure electrics then). They were much more than I paid for the focus, and the question of battery replacement was one I could not get answered to my satisfaction. So I went with a proven technology. I looked a rooftop solar array seriously a few years ago. I did not think it was worth it. At this point i just don't want anybody monkeying around on my roof. When it comes time to replace it, I will likely look again, and if it makes financial sense may well put some up there. I have family and friends who are well-educated and others who are not. Some are well off, and some are not. Some live in rural areas, some live in the city. I get along with them all, and I think if you genuinely try to see things from the other point of view (listening with genuine respect) you usually see the other side has a point. Half of the country is too many to write them all off as stupid (which ever half of the country you personally may be looking at at that moment).

    I think there are two aspects you may want to consider:

    One is the "preachiness" of people who support electric vehicles. They can come across like members of a cult, and the overall vibe is pushy. Some people don't like the pushiness, and simply want to be left alone to make their own decisions when they are ready. I knew someone with a new solar array on their roof. It was worse than having a multi-level marketer move in next door. No, I really don't want to hear about the wonders of your roof again. I looked at it and did not think it made sense for us. Period. Full stop. At a certain point the pushiness gets disrespectful.

    The other aspect is the actual force of government policy at many levels. Is there an overt ACA style mandate that somebody has to go out and buy an electric car? No, not yet anyway. If the supporters of the movement had their way, some are concerned that there would be. However, we do have endless government subsidies. Subsidies for the manufacturers, for the suppliers of the manufacturers, and for the purchasers. Then we have subsidies to put in charging stations, which provide subsidized power, for the people driving the subsidized car they bought from the subsidized manufacturer. Then in some parts of the country you have reduced/eliminated tolls. All of it paid for by the taxpayer. Including the same taxpayers that are sneered at and called stupid neanderthals for clinging to the thing that works and gets them to work everyday. If there is a little bitterness, I for one can understand some of it.

    Now you think what you want, but some people think the subsidy structure looks like an effort to "force a shift to renewable energy."





    The report linked to on commercial level production is interesting. If you look at the full report you find the following:

    "Although alternative energy is increasingly cost-competitive and storage technology holds great promise, alternative energy systems alone will not be capable of meeting the base-load generation needs of a developed economy for the foreseeable future."

    The report does not compare apples to apples. It is pricing arrays that are piggy-backing on existing conventional/nuclear supply. The cost structure would be much different if you were looking at a solar system that needed to actually meet the demand without that crutch. It is like comparing the skills of the circus guy who works over a net, to the one guy who goes out and walks the tightrope over Niagara Falls or whatever without a net. What they are doing looks the same, but it is really very different.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Yathin Krishnappa View Post
    Jim, I've been ICE-ed once (in picture below)! And from reading the Tesla forums, I believe that this happens all over the country.

    Attachment 399939
    It seems that certain people resent those who can afford expensive cars - and the Tesla S is certainly an expensive car. I had a buddy who owned an expensive Porsche and he used to park it far out in the lot so that no one would park next to him and ding his car. Someone keyed the whole side of his car.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  3. #183
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    We did away with good transportation years ago, good public transportation. It has now become an unsafe form. I rode a city bus or streetcars to school from the 3rd to the 12th grade. It was safe, lots of working people rode the bus. Inexpensive too. The ride was about an hour. Men and women read the morning or afternoon paper or chatted with friends. I did my homework or chatted with friends or adults. Too bad you can’t do that today. The last rides I took were 25 cents. It would cost you 5 dollars a day to park a car on a lot. We should look at that closer again. Make it safe convenient and cheap and that would really change the so called carbon footprint.
    Jim

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yathin Krishnappa View Post
    Jim, I've been ICE-ed once (in picture below)! And from reading the Tesla forums, I believe that this happens all over the country.

    Attachment 399939
    Yeah, I bet that guy saw you coming, knew you needed a fancy parking spot, and then deliberately ICE'd you. LOL. Now thats a good use of the term.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yathin Krishnappa View Post
    Electric car drivers (like Prius drivers before) can act snobbish and that's very off-putting.
    The very first Nissan Leaf I ever saw had a license plate frame that read, "More Pious Than A Prius".
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
    We used to be hunter gatherers. Now we're shopper borrowers.
    The three most important words in the English language: "Front Towards Enemy".
    The world makes a lot more sense when you remember that Butthead was the smart one.
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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Blue View Post
    Were you intentionally ICE-ed or was that the only spaces available to park when he arrived?
    Even if there weren't chargers there, that idiot is parked illegally.
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
    We used to be hunter gatherers. Now we're shopper borrowers.
    The three most important words in the English language: "Front Towards Enemy".
    The world makes a lot more sense when you remember that Butthead was the smart one.
    You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammo.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Yeah, I bet that guy saw you coming, knew you needed a fancy parking spot, and then deliberately ICE'd you. LOL. Now thats a good use of the term.
    Do you also find it funny if someone parked illegally in a handicap spot? :-(

    Often, you get to a supercharger when you don’t have much charge to get to another place to charge, so it is in very poor taste to block chargers when there are so few and far apart.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee DeRaud View Post
    Even if there weren't chargers there, that idiot is parked illegally.
    Really? I guess that's a privilege of the left coast where there is a law for everything and some you haven't thought of. Obviously it's not a big box store where trailers would be welcome but I travel over a large area and my work truck doesn't fit in a standard space. I have yet to park somewhere it's illegal that I am filling more than one space.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Yeah, I bet that guy saw you coming, knew you needed a fancy parking spot, and then deliberately ICE'd you. LOL. Now thats a good use of the term.
    "Fancy parking spot"? Do you consider gas pumps "fancy parking spots"? If you needed gas and someone pulled a giant trailer in front of the pumps, would you "LOL" about it?

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Yathin Krishnappa View Post
    Jim, I've been ICE-ed once (in picture below)! And from reading the Tesla forums, I believe that this happens all over the country.

    Attachment 399939
    ^^^Not much context here: Other spaces available? Pull thru spots suitable for a trailer? How long were they parked there? >> You see a rude S@B. I see a person with limited options on how/where to park a trailer. (Is the morality half full or half empty??)

    Nicholas makes excellent points about subsidies IMHO - if you want to be an early adopter of EV and solar, or would rather have your big-block Chevy land-yacht pried from your cold, dead fingers, knock yourself out. Just don't ask me to help pay for it. On the other hand, for the late-to-never adopters, keep in mind that when the vote is in, you may lose (and have to store your ol' Chevy in your 2-car museum).

    For what it's worth, at least one of the major oil company's business plan assumes all light utility vehicles, aka cars and trucks (<3/4t) will be EVs by 2040. Not to say this will come to pass, or that gasoline won't still be available, but by that time ICE users may experience the same 'range anxiety' that the current EV operators feel.

    Other modes of transport may lag far behind the above personal transport fuel shift. The energy density advantage that gas/diesel/Jet-A offers, will be tough to beat via known technologies - You and your life-mate might fly to Hawaii for the anniversary, but if you do so in the Boeing battery "dreamEVliner", it will be the same size as the 787 and you 2 will fill both of the allowable seats. ...No flight crew, but drinks will be self-serve!! I wonder what a ticket will cost??

    Where is that personal Mr. Fusion reactor when you need it?!?
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 12-31-2018 at 5:38 PM.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Blue View Post
    Really? I guess that's a privilege of the left coast where there is a law for everything and some you haven't thought of. Obviously it's not a big box store where trailers would be welcome but I travel over a large area and my work truck doesn't fit in a standard space. I have yet to park somewhere it's illegal that I am filling more than one space.
    I’ve lived all over the US and there’s a difference between people who drive pickups for work and people who drive pickups for style or hauling their toys. It’s obvious that there are better ways to park and it’s also obvious that Lee was not generalizing all people who drive trucks. I can understand if it’s an emergency or a work truck, but that guy who blocked the chargers was just being obnoxious.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    It seems that certain people resent those who can afford expensive cars - and the Tesla S is certainly an expensive car. I had a buddy who owned an expensive Porsche and he used to park it far out in the lot so that no one would park next to him and ding his car. Someone keyed the whole side of his car.
    Mike
    Is that the entire set of evidence that he was keyed because someone resented the fact he could afford an expensive car? Do people in normal cars not ever find them dinged or keyed?

    One thing that I only ever do see with an expensive car: straddling two parking spaces. I never seem to see poor people do that.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm McLeod View Post
    ^^^Not much context here: Other spaces available? Pull thru spots suitable for a trailer? >> You see rude a S@B. I see a person with limited options on how/where to park a trailer. (Is the morality half full or half empty??)
    Wait! You need a context for that? Are you a guy who will park in a handicap spot or a fire lane if there is no other spot?

    Also, the fusion reactor is shared — you can use it too. Nothing personal about it.

    By the way, about subsidies for electrics — please comment about it only if you’ve never taken a tax break or done a tax write off. The electric subsidy is just another tax break like every other tax handout. No one buys electrics because they need the tax break. I would buy one even if there was no tax break.
    Last edited by Yathin Krishnappa; 12-31-2018 at 2:23 PM. Reason: Error

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm McLeod View Post
    ^^^Not much context here: Other spaces available? Pull thru spots suitable for a trailer? How long were they parked there? >> You see rude a S@B. I see a person with limited options on how/where to park a trailer. (Is the morality half full or half empty??)
    The Tesla supercharger spots are generally privately-owned parking spots and are clearly marked as being reserved for EVs. So, I have limited sympathy for someone parking their toy-hauling trailer on private property when signage explicitly tells them not to do that.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Yonak Hawkins View Post
    Again, who's forcing what ? What am I missing ?
    Nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head, but there is a lot of pressure to conform. Government subsidies to electric vehicle owners, increased rights provided to people who own hybrids and electric vehicles, increased taxes on gas drivers because, duh, electric vehicles don't pay gas taxes and therefore don't contribute to the road maintenance funds, gas drivers are being penalized by the electric vehicle crowd and figure they get special treatment because they're special or something.

    Given an entirely level playing field, electric vehicles have no chance whatsoever. If there were no subsidies at all provided by the government, if all of the electric vehicle manufacturers had to fund all of their own research and development, if they had to sell their vehicles for what they actually cost and consumers had to pay their fair share on the roadways and not get special treatment, then the whole industry would collapse. It would be an even more niche product than it is. Your Tesla would cost the same amount as a Ferrari and only the rich and snobby would buy them, instead of the middle class and snobby that we have today.

    So don't say nobody is being pushed into adopting a technology that currently is a step backwards, because of an absurd political agenda. It's just a lie.

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