Electric cars

[Matt Mattingley]

Matt, I think you over-estimate how much the "green" factor plays into this, for most people. Setting politics, tax incentives, and climate concerns aside, there is still significant demand for EVs because they perform better, are safer, quieter, more convenient, etc.

I’m not ignorant. I know the changes coming. I somewhat retired three years ago. Two years ago I joined a very large college/university. Idle hands are the devils playground. We have a photo cells and turbines on top of our building.

- They perform better??? I don’t think so! Compare anything battery operated to any other source of power.
- They are safer??? I don’t think so! Price to price tag (with no incentives) gasoline pound for pound will get you further, and in a head on collision average, Price tag to price tag. A $70,000 EV fully loaded compared to a $70,000 fully loaded anything, I’m pretty sure everyone will be dead in the EV.
- Quieter, you got me here. This is so long as you are charging with only photocells. Wind puts off a ton of noise, so do A lot of power plants.
- More convenient, maybe for the short-haul with an integrated system set up. Drive from Detroit to Florida keys in the next 24 hours in your EV, I fill up five times and it takes me 4 minutes for a fill up. I do this in a Dodge minivan, with a new price tag of $24,000.

I’m interested in your comparisons.

Don’t get me wrong, I commute using a four-door Jeep to work. On Nice days, I would love to do my 5 mile commute using electric assisted pedal bike. I do have a payload of myself +25-50ish pounds. But, I still need my jeep and my minivan. I need my minivan because it is wheelchair accessible (and no EV has provided this), I need my jeep to get to some rough terrain’s that I’m required to go to, and sometimes, I’m pulling at 3000 pound trailer. I do have enough property to support a EV. But I only have two parking spots and my garage is a workshop, so I would have to give the jeep a new parking spot.

Happy New Year’s!

[Yathin Krishnappa]

So, everyone buying groceries subsizes the few driving E vehicles? That kind of diminishes the argument aboit the truck parking there for a few minutes.

Wow! I am baffled by this logic, and by your continued support to someone (the truck guy) who was clearly being obnoxious.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

But in the end, taxes are paid by the people. Nobody should really be getting a free ride.

So, you've never taken a tax break? How are EV incentives any different? Do people take mortgages or have kids just for the tax incentives they come with? The tax code is so complicated that there are "free rides" for everyone.

I am really looking forward to the day that there are no EV incentives, so we can get past this nauseating "free ride" arguments. Even the biggest journeys begin with a single step, and this whole EV experiment has just begun and will continue to evolve.

Those who own EV cars, I would like to see where they are in age and income level, compared to 350 million neighbours.
Then I would like to see them bring into the comparison of their total carbon footprint with all properties and vehicles involved. Just because you own a EV it doesn’t make you greener then your neighbour. In most situations it is reverse.

You are absolutely right that there are many people who are doing more for the planet than those driving EVs. For instance, commuting to work using public transit or bikes are incomparably cleaner than driving EVs. And there are thousands of more ways. It is very unfortunate that the EVs have become a sort of elitist thing and I sincerely hope that it doesn't stay that way for long. EVs are an option and it works well for some and I can totally understand it will not work for a lot of people and respect that choice. Hopefully, we will have more EVs that work for a lot more people and look forward to new technologies and infrastructure to support that.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

- They perform better??? I don’t think so! Compare anything battery operated to any other source of power.

What performance are you referring to? I know people (me included) who moved from Porsches to Teslas and we think Teslas "perform" better. Of course, people who drive supercars may think that electrics don't perform all that well. On my farm, I prefer to use the 200 hp New Holland to stack hay bales, and an F-250 to haul stuff because they perform better for those tasks. ;-)

- They are safer??? I don’t think so! Price to price tag (with no incentives) gasoline pound for pound will get you further, and in a head on collision average, Price tag to price tag. A $70,000 EV fully loaded compared to a $70,000 fully loaded anything, I’m pretty sure everyone will be dead in the EV.

Believe it or not, they are safer. In fact, the Teslas are the among the safest, if not the safest, ever tested. It was a major factor for me to get them. You don't have to take my word for it because it should all be there on the NHSTA website. :-)

Quieter, you got me here. This is so long as you are charging with only photocells. Wind puts off a ton of noise, so do A lot of power plants.

And oil wells, tankers, trains and pumps at gas stations are super quiet?

More convenient, maybe for the short-haul with an integrated system set up. Drive from Detroit to Florida keys in the next 24 hours in your EV, I fill up five times and it takes me 4 minutes for a fill up. I do this in a Dodge minivan, with a new price tag of $24,000.

I could do Detroit to Florida keys with a rental for a price tag of a few hundred dollars. ;-) Seriously though, I would buy a car for that works for a majority of my needs and not for that once-a-year use. I wanted the independence of a gasoline car and kept one around for a year after I bought my Teslas before I got over my "range anxiety" -- so I can understand why people would think electrics will never work for their needs.

[Brian Henderson]

No one has a legal right to the spots - they're on private property. The cops may not tow the truck, but certainly the owner of the parking lot could have the vehicle towed.

Then good luck with that.

[Pat Barry]

Wow! I am baffled by this logic, and by your continued support to someone (the truck guy) who was clearly being obnoxious.

How can you be baffled by the logic that all the grocery store customers are paying for a privileged few that drive E vehicles? That is absurd. As far as the truck guy, we don't really know what was going on, do we? Maybe there was an emergency that he needed to park and found the first spot he could. There are a million possibilities, not all of them point to obnoxious. Most likely, those few charging spots are empty 90% of the day.

[Dan Friedrichs]

How can you be baffled by the logic that all the grocery store customers are paying for a privileged few that drive E vehicles? That is absurd. As far as the truck guy, we don't really know what was going on, do we? Maybe there was an emergency that he needed to park and found the first spot he could. There are a million possibilities, not all of them point to obnoxious. Most likely, those few charging spots are empty 90% of the day.

Pat, why does the grocery thing bother you? How is it different than the "privileged" buying expensive steak so that others can buy a loss-leader chicken?

(and if you read the whole thread, you'd see the poster of that pic explained that the driver was running into a sporting goods store, and that other parking was readily available)

[Dan Friedrichs]

- They perform better??? I don’t think so! Compare anything battery operated to any other source of power.

You can define "performance" however you want, but a Tesla S has a 0-60 time less than many supercars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_acceleration

- They are safer??? I don’t think so! ....I’m pretty sure everyone will be dead in the EV.

Three Tesla models are literally the safest cars ever tested by NHTSA, by a huge margin: https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/...fest-cars.aspx

- Quieter, you got me here... Wind puts off a ton of noise, so do A lot of power plants.

The power plant is a long ways from my house I won't hear it

- More convenient, maybe for the short-haul with an integrated system set up. Drive from Detroit to Florida keys in the next 24 hours in your EV, I fill up five times and it takes me 4 minutes for a fill up. I do this in a Dodge minivan, with a new price tag of $24,000.

I'm not trying to take your minivan away. 99% of my driving is around a metro area. I'll plug-in at home. Never go to a gas station again. Never change oil again. Rarely change brakes. I get to park in the "privileged people" ( ) spot at the grocery store. Sounds super convenient, to me.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

How can you be baffled by the logic that all the grocery store customers are paying for a privileged few that drive E vehicles? That is absurd. As far as the truck guy, we don't really know what was going on, do we? Maybe there was an emergency that he needed to park and found the first spot he could. There are a million possibilities, not all of them point to obnoxious. Most likely, those few charging spots are empty 90% of the day.

Sorry, what "privilege" are you talking about? Since when did driving EVs become a privilege? That is even more absurd than your idea that grocery store customers are paying for electric cars.

Tesla originally offered free supercharging to prove that their cars (and EVs in general) can function as everyday cars. It is meant to be used on road trips and when traveling long distances. However, people started using that as parking spots to do local grocery store runs. It wasn't a problem when the cars were few, but now that there are upwards of 200,000 of them, it is a problem and Tesla does NOT offer free supercharging anymore and fines people who park there when they are not charging. Tesla owners will eventually use chargers as filling stations on road trips and not as parking spots. If you've ever seen where superchargers are located -- they are often located in the far ends of parking lots and generally there are no other cars parked there. I've used superchargers in 15 states and that's a common pattern.

So, if the EV chargers are just like parking spots with a charger then the grocery store customers are not subsidizing EV cars any more than they are for anyone who parks in their parking lot. Also, people a free to NOT shop in grocery stores that have chargers so that they can save $0.0001 on their grocery bill. It's not a coincidence that Tesla superchargers are usually near premium brands (a fact that I hate, by the way).

And about the truck. I did mention later on about what his intentions were. In any case, that's no way to park if it's NOT an emergency or it's NOT a work truck.

[Pat Barry]

Sorry, what "privilege" are you talking about? Since when did driving EVs become a privilege? That is even more absurd than your idea that grocery store customers are paying for electric cars.

Tesla originally offered free supercharging to prove that their cars (and EVs in general) can function as everyday cars. It is meant to be used on road trips and when traveling long distances. However, people started using that as parking spots to do local grocery store runs. It wasn't a problem when the cars were few, but now that there are upwards of 200,000 of them, it is a problem and Tesla does NOT offer free supercharging anymore and fines people who park there when they are not charging. Tesla owners will eventually use chargers as filling stations on road trips and not as parking spots. If you've ever seen where superchargers are located -- they are often located in the far ends of parking lots and generally there are no other cars parked there. I've used superchargers in 15 states and that's a common pattern.

So, if the EV chargers are just like parking spots with a charger then the grocery store customers are not subsidizing EV cars any more than they are for anyone who parks in their parking lot. Also, people a free to NOT shop in grocery stores that have chargers so that they can save $0.0001 on their grocery bill. It's not a coincidence that Tesla superchargers are usually near premium brands (a fact that I hate, by the way).

And about the truck. I did mention later on about what his intentions were. In any case, that's no way to park if it's NOT an emergency or it's NOT a work truck.

You don't know his intentions at all do you? You are just assuming. Its too bad you were inconvenienced. I feel that all the other patrons of that grocery store are also being inconvenienced by higher prices to pay for your free recharge of you <1% vehicle. That's as simple as I can make it for you.

[Jim Becker]

Pat, whether or not the "free" recharging impacts other customers isn't quite the point...folks who shop at that store probably choose to do so regardless of the potentially higher prices...which likely existed prior to the chargers going in anyway. In many areas, there are specialty/whole foods/"high end" type markets that cater to a different demography. Many EV owners fit that demography simply because it's a young market and prices remain high for the vehicles. My older daughter works in one of these stores (they pay well, too), but she doesn't buy food there because of the specialty nature of the store. She's not in the demographic. I happen to agree with Yathin that the truck driver in the photo could have made a more courteous parking choice given that it was stated that plenty of other parking was available that could have accommodated a truck/trailer combination. While we can never know the true motivation of that pick-em-up truck driver for choosing to block the EV charging spaces, given he did have other choices, it's not hard to imagine it was on purpose and consistent with the behavior previously mentioned in this thread. That's certainly only an assumption. But it's based on the evidence provided.

[James Pallas]

I have another big issue to me with EV cars and small fuel effiecient cars. I still have a PU and plan for it to be my last vehicle. We have several family members and a couple of years ago they all seemed to buy small cars. It got to the point that my truck was borrowed nearly every weekend for one thing or another. In the course of one year it was driven more borrowed then I drove it. I put a stop to it and now I’m the grinch. ��. But a happy grinch.
Jim

[Jim Falsetti]

Gents, just a comment on the electric trucks. Smith Electric was a company that tried this, and it didn't work out so well. Maybe recent advances in technology and pricing have improved the outlook.

[Yathin Krishnappa]

You don't know his intentions at all do you? You are just assuming. Its too bad you were inconvenienced. I feel that all the other patrons of that grocery store are also being inconvenienced by higher prices to pay for your free recharge of you <1% vehicle. That's as simple as I can make it for you.

I found myself at that supercharger location after a road trip and it was the only place to get a charge to be able to continue driving home. There's no grocery store in that mall as far as I know, but it is very interesting that you are very concerned about higher prices in that mythical upscale grocery store frequented by the <1% crowd for whom you show much disdain. In the thread about fuel prices, someone mentioned that hike in diesel prices directly translates to higher prices in groceries and it somewhat subsidizes prices of gasoline. Maybe you should be more concerned about that with respect to food/grocery prices?

Here's what happened: 1. This was a large mall and there were parking spots a little further away and no one would have been inconvenienced if the driver chose those further away spots. 2. I waited about 20 minutes, the driver came back smirked and drove away (and there was no apology like people tend to if they are courteous). Are my assumptions about his intentions justified? If not, could you tell me what you would make of the situation if you were the one who had to wait for the charging spot? The only other plausible explanations for you to assume that I am wrong are because either that truck is yours/someone you know or you are just prejudiced against me or my car.

[Pat Barry]

I found myself at that supercharger location after a road trip and it was the only place to get a charge to be able to continue driving home. There's no grocery store in that mall as far as I know, but it is very interesting that you are very concerned about higher prices in that mythical upscale grocery store frequented by the <1% crowd for whom you show much disdain. In the thread about fuel prices, someone mentioned that hike in diesel prices directly translates to higher prices in groceries and it somewhat subsidizes prices of gasoline. Maybe you should be more concerned about that with respect to food/grocery prices?

Here's what happened: 1. This was a large mall and there were parking spots a little further away and no one would have been inconvenienced if the driver chose those further away spots. 2. I waited about 20 minutes, the driver came back smirked and drove away (and there was no apology like people tend to if they are courteous). Are my assumptions about his intentions justified? If not, could you tell me what you would make of the situation if you were the one who had to wait for the charging spot? The only other plausible explanations for you to assume that I am wrong are because either that truck is yours/someone you know or you are just prejudiced against me or my car.

Why would you call me prejudiced? You should have called the police and reported that someone was blocking your access to the charging station. Should have been easy enough to find another charging station anyway.

Ed: removed comment