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Thread: Another use for my Shooting Board

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Simon,


    In the last quote from your posts above you use some impolite language. There is no need for this.



    jtk
    Obviously, you did not read all my subsequent posts.

    By the way, I don't think people -- and they are mostly adult -- who come up here and share their views are so easily discouraged as you thought.

    Simon

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    Obviously, you did not read all my subsequent posts.

    By the way, I don't think people -- and they are mostly adult -- who come up here and share their views are so easily discouraged as you thought.

    Simon
    Your subsequent post did not lessen the sting felt upon the first reading.

    We often forget that many people who read these pages may have found them through an internet search. That was my experience. If someone, who has seized the mantle of expertise, comments that something can not be done, many people will accept it as true and move on.

    Yet with examples of how ordinary folks have been able to achieve a degree of accuracy you still cling to the idea that we somehow produced superhuman results through the simple paying of attention to details.

    My proof is my result. Since it has been done more than once or twice, it is repeatable. My belief is the ability to reach this result is something that can be taught.

    What proof do you have to indicate the results myself and others have obtained is not possible to a degree of accuracy such as 0.001" over the length of a square?

    Are there any studies showing 99.99% of the people walking this earth are incapable of being taught such a skill?

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 12-03-2018 at 12:30 PM. Reason: wording
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Your subsequent post did not lessen the sting felt upon the first reading.


    Are there any studies showing 99.99% of the people walking this earth are incapable of being taught such a skill?

    jtk
    What sting? second-rate is an adjective like poor. Please read things in their context. I am have been accused of making a selective comprehension when I did not.

    Did you read my posts with care? Where did I ever mention about people being taught or incapable of being taught? I said 99.99% would not be able to file a square true...with the kind of precision you said you are able to achieve.

    Yes, 99.99% of people living under the sun can't do that, well still leaving 7.2 billion x 0.01% = 720,000 people who can. 720,000? Oh well, that is still quite a high estimate...need to fine-tune the tolerance level a bit.

    You are free to disagree with anything I say, but don't put words in my mouth.

    Simon
    Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 12-03-2018 at 12:53 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    What sting? second-rate is an adjective like poor.

    Did you read my posts with care? Where did I ever mention about people being taught or incapable of being taught? I said 99.99% would not be able to file a square true...with the kind of precision you said you are able to achieve.

    Yes, 99.99% of people living under the sun can't do that, well still leaving 7.2 billion x 0.01% = 720,000 people who can. 720,000? Oh well, that is still quite a high estimate...need to fine-tune the tolerance level a bit.

    Simon
    If people ridiculed you by calling your judgement second rate would you not feel insulted?

    Most of the men who went through the standard education of my time would likely be able to do such a task. They were taught such things in general shop class.

    Now the people who grew up and live in an isolated village who never saw a file in their life, they may need training in such a skill.

    Then again, some of the engineering graduates of my acquaintance may have great difficulty with such a task. Some of them seemed more versed in things that couldn't be done instead of understanding how they could be done.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 12-03-2018 at 1:01 PM. Reason: wording
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    If people ridiculed you by calling your judgement second rate would you not feel insulted?



    jtk
    Context, sir!

    If my boss told me my judgement or skill was second-rate, IF I did this or did that, why would I feel insulted? We always hear people say like "You're pretty stupid if you plan to go down that path." Stupid?

    If you insist a word like "second-rate" be an insulting word regardless of the context in which it is used, I won't say you are being over-sensitive (I won't because you would probably consider "over-sensitive" another insulting word, too), but I would suggest you read too much into a word in isolation.


    Simon

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    Context, sir!

    If my boss told me my judgement or skill was second-rate, IF I did this or did that, why would I feel insulted? We always hear people say like "You're pretty stupid if you plan to go down that path." Stupid?

    If you insist a word like "second-rate" be an insulting word regardless of the context in which it is used, I won't say you are being over-sensitive (I won't because you would probably consider "over-sensitive" another insulting word, too), but I would suggest you read too much into a word in isolation.


    Simon
    So if your boss said that to you, would you have warm fuzzy feelings about the experience or would you be feeling a bit of disappointment in yourself?

    For me it is kinder to tell a person a path will not achieve the results they desire. It is better for decorum, civility and the future of a relationship than to say a person is 'stupid.'

    In my experience bosses have always had more success improving a worker by telling them they are capable of doing better instead of telling them they are below par.

    It is much easier to influence a person's development and keep their interest by saying, "the path you are following is destined for failure," as opposed to, "You're pretty stupid if you plan to go down that path."

    Some words, even in isolation, have a tainted air about them.

    On a different subject, you haven't provided anything offering support for your original statement:

    "Filing or sanding an edge works only if your tolerance level is not high."
    Is this your opinion upon which we have spent so many pixels? Is this a quote from a more authoritative source?

    It seems there are exceptions to this 'rule' right here in this thread.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  7. #52
    Are you being serious? Since when you said something that you've added a footnote or included a dissertation paper to support whatever you might care to make an opinion on? Or is it a new forum rule that you have imagined to be a condition for anyone to express their views?

    If you want proof and support on everything I said, it is your responsibility to disprove what I asserted. If you intend to play a childish game out of some kind of a mission, you are the lone player. On the other hand, if you're trying to prove that you are always right, just tell yourself that you are always right, and you won't hear any "discouragement" from me on that.

    Simon
    Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 12-03-2018 at 5:24 PM.

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    Context, sir!

    If my boss told me my judgement or skill was second-rate, IF I did this or did that, why would I feel insulted? We always hear people say like "You're pretty stupid if you plan to go down that path." Stupid?

    If you insist a word like "second-rate" be an insulting word regardless of the context in which it is used, I won't say you are being over-sensitive (I won't because you would probably consider "over-sensitive" another insulting word, too), but I would suggest you read too much into a word in isolation.


    Simon
    Hi Simon.
    Hey, just another man's opinion here, but I'd have taken it as a put down if someone called my judgement or skill "second rate". I realize context matters, but that choice of words has a negative connotation any time I've ever encountered it. That doesn't mean you meant it that way. But it's what I would have heard.

    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    Are you being serious? Since when you said something that you've added a footnote or included a dissertation paper to support whatever you might care to make an opinion on? Or is it a new forum rule that you have imagined to be a condition for anyone to express their views?

    If you want proof and support on everything I said, it is your responsibility to disprove what I asserted. If you intend to play a childish game out of some kind of a mission, you are the lone player.

    Simon
    Serious? Yes.

    Added a footnote? Often in my post is included phrases such as, "this is only my opinion, "to the best of my knowledge," "my recollection is" or other qualifiers such as, YMMV!!!.png

    The ability of others and myself to correct an errant square to better than 0.001" over its length does seem to disprove what you asserted:

    "Filing or sanding an edge works only if your tolerance level is not high."
    Yet for some odd reason you appear unable to accept this as an indication of your opinion possibly being in error.

    If there is a mission involved mine would be to encourage others to try something like bringing an out of square try square back to life. Another mission might be to persuade others to be thoughtful in their communications and to avoid belittling or insulting others.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  10. #55
    Thanks, Fred, for sharing your point of view. We all are receptive to messages or words differently, because of our background, education, bias, sensitivity, even gender, etc.

    I can't control how other people feel about a neutral word like "second-rate," but none of the dictionaries I've checked (Oxford, American Heritage, M-W, etc.) suggest the word carries any derogatory or insulting connotation. If anyone insists that word stings -- despite what the authority says, I can only confirm that insult was not the reason why I used the word.

    Simon

  11. #56
    1) Serious? Yes.

    "Added a footnote? Often in my post is included phrases such as, "this is only my opinion, "to the best of my knowledge," "my recollection is" or other qualifiers such as, "

    - Everything I say is my opinion, unless I quote otherwise, and it is always to the best of my knowledge or experience, unless I otherwise state. So no, I never add a footnote as it is meaningless, unless the footnote is to add some useful information.

    2) "The ability of others and myself to correct an errant square to better than 0.001" over its length does seem to disprove what you asserted: "Filing or sanding an edge works only if your tolerance level is not high.""

    - You already knew how high my tolerance level was? How could you disprove anything without knowing what you were measuring against?


    3) "Yet for some odd reason you appear unable to accept this as an indication of your opinion possibly being in error."
    - I never think I am infallible. But I remain to be convinced that it is not ok to include the topic of tolerance in the topic of truing a square with a file!

    4) "If there is a mission involved mine would be to encourage others to try something like bringing an out of square try square back to life. Another mission might be to persuade others to be thoughtful in their communications and to avoid belittling or insulting others."

    Your mission should be, if you accept it, to persuade people to accept that divergent views are ok, that disagreements are not necessarily discouragements, and most importantly, that anyone can be wrong, not just the one you disagree with.

    Simon

  12. #57
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    Still going?

    Sorry all, as I said it seems I have a knack for starting these things when I use that know-it-all tone about metal work. I'm gonna work on it.

    Sorry Simon, my initial posts were curt and dismissive of your concerns about tolerance. I am not now offended by anything you may have said even if I found it impolite at the time. As I look back on the thread, it's all my fault.
    Dojo Kun, 1: Be humble and polite.

  13. #58
    All good here, Kory.

    Enjoy the forum (and many many of its interesting posts).

    Simon

  14. #59
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    - You already knew how high my tolerance level was? How could you disprove anything without knowing what you were measuring against?
    From what you posted earlier:

    The accuracy of a common engineer’s square is 0.001" per inch of length. It is not 0.001" over the length of the blade.
    Congrats, Jim. You outperform a CNC machine!
    If anyone can file their squares within the tolerance of an engineer's square like, or better than, a machine, CNC or not, they have my congratulations.
    If my accuracy is as good or better than a "common engineer's square" then it is probably to a high enough tolerance.

    If my accuracy can also outperform a CNC machine it is likely to a "high tolerance."

    If my accuracy receives your congratulations, my suspicion is it is to a high enough tolerance.

    If the accuracy of my squares enables me to repeatedly mark, cut and verify perfectly square joints, it is accurate to a high enough tolerance for my needs.

    - I never think I am infallible. But I remain to be convinced that it is not ok to include the topic of tolerance in the topic of truing a square with a file!
    Has anyone suggested not including the topic of tolerance in the a discussion of truing a square?

    Where should we discuss the topic of learning to use the quote feature to make it a little easier to follow your replies?

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  15. #60
    Kory and/or Simon, I have a lovely old try square -- wood, brass(?), and steel (?) -- that used to belong to my grandfather. Since I'm 72, it was a llooonnnggg time ago when my grandfather used this square! I would love to use it, but end up using a cheap modern version that is at least SQUARE! Sadly, my grandfather's is not quite true. How big of a process is it to get a square reasonably back in shape for use in finer woodworking? I am FAR from a metal worker, but if either of you could tell me how to get this back true, or point me to a good source of instruction, I'd be pleased to try.

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