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Thread: Make Wood Windows for old house - good idea?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post
    the machines our cabinet guys have which cost a 200K , would be worthless building a wood window part.

    I'm sure it is better at knocking out sheet goods for sure.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Draper View Post
    Disclaimer: I am currently employed by The Marvin Companies, Inc. as an IT manager.

    If you haven't found a manufacturer of all wood windows than you haven't looked hard enough. Marvin does it. Anderson does it. Pella probably does it.

    My wife is employed by the same company but she works as an Architectural Project Coordinator. She quotes jobs for historical projects all the time. It is very often the case that historical districts have a large amount of control on not just the aesthetics but the construction of windows and doors. Some things to consider.

    The sash construction (if allowed) can either be ADL, actual divided light or SDL, simulated divided light. An ADL would be a sash constructed with several individual pieces of glass each divided by wood or some other material. This can be done with single pane glass or insulated glass. SDL is accomplished by creating a a sash with no dividers. Then the dividers (grills) are stuck on the inside and outside to create the same look of a divided sash. SDL would be less expensive if the historical district would allow it. You would not be able to tell the difference looking from the street. This can be done in an all wood window. Pine would be the least expensive option. Fir would be more. Oak, Cherry, and Mahogany are really going to be a bunch more money but Marvin will do it. If the frames are good and you want to just do replacement sash Marvin can do that.

    If you buy from a manufacturer you are going to get a good warranty, probably 20 years. That is something to consider.

    If you want to talk to a professional I would be happy to give you my wife's contact information.

    I am an accomplished woodworker. I would buy manufactured windows.

    Amen to the last sentence. BUT IF Cosmos windows he posted photo’s of are the worst of the bunch those seem repairable

  3. #48
    $20k for 14 windows isn't out of line. But if you cut back and do 2 windows for one room, for example, you might be paying more per window. Set up charges per order, smaller lumber order, glass is cheaper by higher quantity, more shipping charges, blah, blah, blah. Pisses me off to quote a customer for a large job and then they decide to do a little at a time thinking that they can divide up the cost per job. I run into that situation time to time. No thank you, $20k is for 14 windows. If you want just two, maybe $1800.00 per window for the fabricator to make even money. Same goes for the guy installing it. Get the idea?

    It is better to do them all at once so the windows maintain the same design and build standards. Same wood, same glass, same available hardware, blah blah blah. Otherwise, if you do another set windows down the road...maybe the hardware will not be available? Who knows?

  4. #49
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    I am only familiar with Southern Historical buildings, since those are what I make my living on. We're in the growing range for Southern Long Leaf Pine, which is what all the 18th, and 19th Century sash that I've worked on, or made replacements for were made from. It also follows the growing zone for Cypress, that any building in this zone, that lasted for any amount to time had roof shingles made from.

    Both woods traveled some out of their growing zone, but only for wealthy homeowners, like George Washington. He specified "Carolina Pine" for siding, and Cypress for shingles.

    Paul, I'm not trying to argue with you, but just call it as I've seen it around these parts. Horizontal supporting members under rafters were called Purloins, and the strips we fasten shingles to are called Purlins around here. Those are old terms, much like they called what we call today a "Hall" a "Passage". A Hall was typically the largest room intended for entertaining the public. It's no doubt that definitions for words change over time, but I tend to stick with the old terms. I've also heard Carl Lounsbury call them purlins, so I'm sticking with that.

    About the only remaining, detailed specifications we have remaining from Colonial times, around here, are some of the different Vestry records, and people like George Washington, that kept very detailed records of everything. The word "shake" was never used, that I remember, and the only reference I can find in old architectural glossaries is that it carries two definitions. The first is a split, or fissure in a timber, and the second is a modern term for wooden split shingles.

    Both the surface finish making a difference in longevity, and the original thickness of shingles has been taken mistakenly, more than with a proper understanding. I have a number of wooden shingles saved from houses, that were the roof on the house for over 100 years.

    The bottom edge is indeed thin, but you can see where the row of shingles above the exposed part was because that part is not eroded away. The lower edge may now be 1/2" thick, but if you place a straight edge over the top of the shingle on the part that was covered by the row above, you will see where it projects over the eroded away exposed part, and it will typically be over 3/4" to 7/8". One large house I know of, built by Robert Byrd II had shingles still over an inch thick when they were torn off in the 1970's.

    There have been many reproduction roofs made with shingles that match the butt thickness on the old eroded ones, evidently because the maker believed that's the way they were to start with. I have many pictures of those too, even on some famous houses. We make them as close to what we can figure was the original thickness.

    I have a large enough sampling of these old shingles to be able to say that even though the back may have been shaped with a drawknife, the top would have been left straight.

    Good wood is indeed hard, and expensive to source. To get good Cypress, the best source I've found (and no need to ask) is from some hoarders that keep it "for a good use" from trees that were removed back when new roads were built, before they were as careful as they are now about preserving the old trees.

    Most Heart Pine is resawn from old industrial building beams, and knot free, nail hole free, tight grained stuff is very expensive when you can find it. The sash job on the window page on my website required a little over $75 worth of wood for each sash, and you know how small amount of wood that is.

    When I'm making reproduction sash, even in good sized runs like for a whole house, there is still a fair amount of hand work required, so at most a couple can be made in a day once you have the wood in front of you. We even stick to the same size, and locations for the mortises, and tenons, and only make some modification when it's better for longevity, like the mortises where muntins, and glazing bars meet, that won't be seen in the finished product.

    We also don't use glue. The old sash can be taken apart by driving the pegs out for repair 200 years later, so that design is hard to improve on, but leaves no margin for error on fit of mortises, and tenons.

    This is a part of what I do for a living.
    Last edited by Tom M King; 12-02-2018 at 5:43 PM.

  5. #50
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    I thought about something else that I should have mentioned. Somewhere in this thread, it was recommended to install interior storm windows inside old single pane windows.

    At Prestwould Plantation, they did this to, fortunately, a few of the windows. Water still condensed inside the old windows, and rotted out some of the original sash that had been in good shape before the interior storm windows were installed.

    Another thing on single pane sash: If the inside is going to be painted, it's best to use exterior paint also on the interior side, because there will be solid water condensed at some time, and interior paint cannot withstand any amount of it.

  6. #51
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    No problem Tom, yes different regions surely call the same things different things.

    Back east in RI where I’m from we called the board that follows the slope , or rake of the roof a rake board.

    Out here in the PNW it’s called a barge board , some call it a verge board.

    Another one is window stool , which of course in what most people call a sill , the flat generally projecting board on the inside of a window. The sill is outside of the window.

    Like one mans “best wood” , is probably dependent on region of the country as to what is the “best wood for use “X”?

    Been a interesting thread I think , and I didn’t mean to twist your knickers, I tend to do that as I sort of deal in what can be precieved as absolutes I guess. Mission oriented , some times to much so.

    But I’ve enjoyed this thread, generally things are not this fast happening on this forum , it can take a week to get this many responses , so it’s a popular subject it seems.

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post

    Most Heart Pine is resawn from old industrial building beams, and knot free, nail hole free, tight grained stuff is very expensive when you can find it. The sash job on the window page on my website required a little over $75 worth of wood for each sash, and you know how small amount of wood that is.
    Window quality wood ain't cheap. The white pine I use for storms is about the same cost as white oak for the same thickness. I use the pine because it is easier to find pieces with straight enough grain and it is lighter, an important consideration when putting in a storm while standing on a ladder.

  8. #53
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    No worries Paul. I just thought I should clear it up a bit, and someone might get something out of it.

    Andrew, Nothing down here is built from White Pine. While I hear there are more flies, gnats, and mosquitoes up there, I'm pretty sure we have termites working longer hours down here.

    The first old house I worked on, in 1977, was built in 1777. It was sitting on 3 foot cubes of Heart Cypress directly on the sandy ground. They had eroded away some, but had absolutely no damage from insects. That same house had an untreated set of rear steps. Termites ate the steps, and continued up to feast on most of the large, one piece corner post of the house structure.

  9. #54
    There are probably more sash in North Carolina made of heart southern yellow pine than in Virginia. The NE white pine was "imported " into VA. Maybe not used as much in NC. Yes, I'm sure it's less durable than SYP. But it lasts well enough
    and works beautifully. I consider the NE pine better than sugar pine since it has less pitch to bleed through the paint.

  10. #55
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    The growing range for Southern Long Leaf Pine only goes a few miles North of the Va./N.C. line, near where I live. I think it may go a little farther North more towards the coast. We're right at the transition from Piedmont, to Coastal Plain, so have a fairly sandy top soil, but just a few miles West, and North from here, there is no more sandy soil. SLLP needs sandy soil.
    Last edited by Tom M King; 12-02-2018 at 6:33 PM.

  11. #56
    Winter does keep the termites at bay here.

    Old (prewar) houses here will have white pine for sashes, and most of the external trim. Turn of the century houses had pine siding also. It lasts fine here if is is maintained. Up until about WW2, they were still harvesting the virgin pine forests from northern MN, so it was kind of the local go-to wood. It is probably why Andersen and Marvin started here, and Pella isn't that far south.

    One of the global warming fears that doesn't come up much is the effect of the termite line moving north. It could have millions, even billions of dollars of impact. Nothing up here, at least nothing old, is made remotely termite proof.

  12. #57
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    I think that would be a fun project. I would build one sash to see how to do it. After developing the technique go for it.
    I have made my three pane front door and my single pane back door. I had to buy plate glass for the single pane door.
    I used leaded glass panels on the front door that I had from the old door.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    Sophie says you can repair those windows. They don't look all that bad from your photos. It's a lot of work, but doable. Strip, sand, replace what wood needs to be. It's more effort than skill. New rope, seals, and stops, if needed, when you put them back in. If the sash joints are loose you will have to disassemble and reglue them. It takes a little finesse to find and remove the pins but paint grade allows for lots of sins along the way. You will learn a lot along the way, including exactly how they are made and be in a much better position to judge whether or not you are capable of making any that can't be saved or in communicating with someone else to make them should you choose to go that route.

    John

    Thanks for the advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post
    Who is “Sophie”, is that a saying like “ Bob’s your uncle!” , or is Sophie a living breathing person?
    Sophie is the kitty in the picture. She wants me to open the window for improved bird viewing. There is a screen. We get a little of the desert effect here: it can be really cold at night, then hot during the day. Texas sun is intense!

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmos Krejci View Post
    Thanks for the advice



    Sophie is the kitty in the picture. She wants me to open the window for improved bird viewing. There is a screen. We get a little of the desert effect here: it can be really cold at night, then hot during the day. Texas sun is intense!
    Ah , she’s a pretty cat , I showed her to my wife, we are not cat people , but if we had a cat I’d pick one with her coloring!

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Draper View Post
    Disclaimer: I am currently employed by The Marvin Companies, Inc. as an IT manager.

    If you haven't found a manufacturer of all wood windows than you haven't looked hard enough. Marvin does it. Anderson does it. Pella probably does it.

    .....

    I am an accomplished woodworker. I would buy manufactured windows.

    Anderson does not. They are composite/wood. Pella does not. I will check out Marvin, thanks for the tip.

    Dude here posted a nice pdf. It says there is an epidemic of companies trying to help but doing the opposite. The companies you list are probably one and the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post

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