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Thread: Where will this stuff finally end?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    Hi Steve.
    There is absolutely nothing funny about people having disabilities. And I can't imagine one much worse than being blind. I do not agree that every imaginable thing someone can touch/use/connect-with has to comply with ADA. IMO, there is a reasonableness factor that should be applied. For example, I have seen perfectly intact sidewalks torn up to add wheelchair ramps, in areas where I have never, ever seen a pedestrian. (Which makes you wonder why there is even a sidewalk there, but that's another story.) I would question why such a sidewalk modification is an appropriate expenditure of public money?
    That sounds like a recent project near my house. The county put in a new traffic light. They also installed an ADA compliant ramp. The thing is the ramp goes nowhere and has no value! The sides of the ramp are surrounded by three foot tall grass. Nobody who needs an ADA ramp is going to be able to use that ramp to go anywhere. Heck, an able bodied person would not be able to go anywhere either.

    The traffic light was installed in 2014 and I don't recall ever seeing a pedestrian on that side of the road, disabled or not.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post

    You're obviously more knowledgeable about all this than I am, as a layman. May I ask the nature of the business you're in? You described yourself "as someone whose business serves people with almost every conceivable class of disability." Are you an Attorney who represents disabled clients or a supplier of accomodations, or something else? Edit: I see your bio says hospital CTO but I don't know enough about what that job entails to make a connection to the handicapped and ADA
    Obviously, as a hospital and clinic, we serve disabled people all the time. All of our physical facilities have to be accessible of necessity, as well as by law. But we also operate digital properties - from our public website, to patient portals and mobile apps, to "care plans" delivered as interactive "apps" and remote monitoring of patients, that collectively serve tens of millions of people per year. If you've ever googled a health question, you've almost certainly used our web materials. We consider accessibility in all of these activities. We would consider it a failure of our mission if a blind or deaf person trying to learn about, say, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, or to get an appointment with us for the same, was impeded by inaccessible material or tools on our digital properties. That the law also requires them to be accessible helps us understand the best approach, but we would be doing it absent the law.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Demuth View Post
    Obviously, as a hospital and clinic, we serve disabled people all the time. All of our physical facilities have to be accessible of necessity, as well as by law. But we also operate digital properties - from our public website, to patient portals and mobile apps, to "care plans" delivered as interactive "apps" and remote monitoring of patients, that collectively serve tens of millions of people per year. If you've ever googled a health question, you've almost certainly used our web materials. We consider accessibility in all of these activities. We would consider it a failure of our mission if a blind or deaf person trying to learn about, say, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, or to get an appointment with us for the same, was impeded by inaccessible material or tools on our digital properties. That the law also requires them to be accessible helps us understand the best approach, but we would be doing it absent the law.
    Ok. Thanks Steve!
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  4. #19
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    There are Federal regulations around accessibility for electronic resources like web sites that do need to be addressed by certain entities, including the government itself. Citizen-facing resources as well as user interfaces of systems come into play here and products/solutions that fall under those regulations are required to have an associated document that explains what accessibility is supported and for things not in compliance, why and what the mitigation plan might be. I had to deal with this all the time prior to my retirement when responding to my Federal customers' requests for proposals/quotes...and trust me, it was always a moving target! These accommodations generally address things like folks who cannot hear or folks who cannot see, for example.

    I suspect it's unlikely that these regulations would apply to "entertainment" resources, however...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #20
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    It is my understanding that there attorneys whose sole practice is to find non-ADA compliant public websites and sue them, usually ending up with a 5 figure settlement and the website being taken down until compliant. But a private website like Playboy? That opens up every website including SMC. But, as has been said, you can sue anyone for anything. That doesn't mean you are in the right and will win.
    NOW you tell me...

  6. #21
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    I cannot find a law that invokes the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG). The guidelines are referenced as specifications but that does not make them a legal requirement. Has the ADA been revised to include the WCAG?

  7. #22
    I am aware of the current state of the law. Whether a web site can be a public accommodation erodes away slightly at that law. It may be one of several dozen required to stop the censorship that occurs with some web providers and sites. Ok so I go to Sam's Club and they have a gun case for sale, but I do not know if my gun will fit, so I go on line with the store's wifi to look up the length of my rifle and the Sam's Club wi fi blocks any site that has information about guns. So I go to a German web site and look up the same exact information for the exact same rifle, but instead of being labeled as a rifle or gun, it is a "wiederlader" So when I find that my gun would fit, I reconsider and tell the manager that as long as the store is barring reference information about firearms I can't look up whether my gun will fit the case. I will not be purchasing anything further. My membership expired that day anyway. My family spent about 3 k a year there. Screw them. Face book has had their problems, there just may be more in the future. Phone companies were considered public utilities. Face book could find itself in a similar position.

  8. #23
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    Keith, I believe that the Section 508 accessibility requirements only apply to certain types of online presences, such as Government and other "public" entities, at least in the US.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  9. #24
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    The solution I like is to allow the plaintiff to receive only actual damages. All punitive damages go to government coffers. After all, it is we, the People, who should be levying punishment on offenders not individuals. Ambulance chasers would be less likely to file frivolous lawsuits if they only get a percentage of actual damages.

  10. #25
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    Jim, based on your link there is no requirement to invoke an ADA type of system on any private online site. I know that the ADA has not been revised since I left CNU so I still cannot find any legal requirement for Playboy or any other private company to include accessibility for the disabled.

    It would seem to me that a legal challenge against Playboy is nothing more than an attempt to force the government to amend the ADA or create a new law for digital media.

  11. #26
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    The plaintiff could also choose to "read the articles" using text to speech...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #27
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    I remember over 30 years ago a neighbors grandfather went blind before ADA. The city asked where he walked and raised the street signs so he would not hit his head in those areas. They did this from my neighborhood down to the shopping street and the parks where he went.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Hilbert Jr View Post
    HMMMMMM>
    Should craigs list be able to ban listing guns for sale?
    Yes, what a great idea!

  14. #29
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    My question would be whether there is a standard reader interface for forums. SMC certainly uses some forum software and that's where a suit should be directed. If, for instance, there are 20 forum software companies and 19 of them support some sort of reader standard, then go after the outlier. Encourage the users of that software to migrate to those vendors that do support the standard.

    Full disclosure, I have no first hand knowledge of this. But it seems to me that going after a non-profit such as SMC is a fools game unless there is a ready solution that costs nothing.

  15. #30
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    Another thing: Someone might ask why a sight-impaired person would be interested in SMC since woodwork kinda requires sight. When I was in college, I took a tour of the Kansas School for the Blind where they had a very active woodshop. They had kids using the bandsaw. The instructor glued a template on the wood. Then they had a little rod that stuck down just in front of the blade (really close). The kid found that rod with and knew that the blade was right behind. They felt the template and guided the rod. Scared the heck out of me but the kids did it.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that they don't do that anymore.

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