Let's talk Dyes... Again...

[Aaron carter]

So I have done way too much research into coloring wood over the past week. I have read the art of coloring wood, the furniture bible, as well as watched about 6 hours of charles neil on youtube. Now my head is just spinning haha.

I want to use dyes and have done some sample boards but had some blotching. To prevent it you can put down a sanding sealer like 1/2 lb cut shellac... (though bob flexner would disagree about using shellac as a sealer). I have had mixed results with shellac in the past...

Alternatively you can spray the wood dye and I have heard some people say you wipe off the extra and others say you don't. I have a cheap harbor freight gun that would spray dye just fine, I just hate spraying because of set up and cleanup. But it may be my only choice.

I ordered some water soluble dyes from W.D. lockwood, I primarily use Arm R seal for a topcoat. I have some Seal a Cell that I am considering diluting and using as a sealer prior to the dye, but if the sealer is oil base will there be a problem putting water based dye over the top? I obviously can't use a water base sealer then apply arm r seal over that after the dye because of incompatibility.

Alternatively, another finish I am considering trying is Kem Aqua by sherwin williams which is a waterbase rather than the Arm R Seal for the top coat. This would need to be sprayed as well.

I do have a tent in my shop for spraying but like I said I hate cleaning the gun...

[Jim Becker]

I'm moving to spraying dye for larger projects primarily to eliminate any "witness lines" that sometimes are hard to avoid with hand application over larger surfaces.

Alternatively, another finish I am considering trying is Kem Aqua by sherwin williams which is a waterbase rather than the Arm R Seal for the top coat. This would need to be sprayed as well.

Please be aware that Kem Aqua presented a challenge to both my self and John T with "laying down". I caused me major angst on a very large project, as a matter of fact. The solution ultimately ended up using some GF Extender to get it to flow out, but I've chosen to stick with the Target Coatings products I've been using for years as I don't generally have that issue with them. Many others use GF products.

[John TenEyck]

My approach with dyes is similar to Jim's; I spray it most of the time as a way to minimize blotching. You won't get blotching as long as you only spray what the wood can absorb; if you spray so much that the liquid pools on the wood then it can migrate and cause blotching, or leave ugly rings at the edge of the wet spots when it dries. This is why some people wipe after spraying, and I've done it a couple of times, to be honest.

A huge benefit of spraying is you don't need to use blotch controller, sealer, whatever, first. After your wood is prepped you just spray on the dye. Whatever "pain" there is setting up and cleaning up for spraying is more than made up for by the ease of spraying the dye and elimination of other products and steps if you don't.

OK, topcoats. Arm-R-Seal is a great choice over WB dye. There's no compatibility issue whatsoever, and there's no reason to use Seal-A-Cell first unless you want to apply an OB glaze. Kem Aqua Plus is a whole 'nother kettle of fish compared to Arm-R-Seal. Besides being a bear to spray unless I add GF's Extender to it, it looks nothing like Arm-R-Seal nor is it as durable.

John

[Aaron carter]

Thank you guys for your feedback I really appreciate it! I will stick to spraying it. going back to the topcoat, what are you guys spraying? arm r seal is my go to for wipe on but I am looking for a decent water base to spray in my shop where I don't have much for ventilation and it is -10 degrees outside.

[John TenEyck]

My all around favorite WB spray finish is GF's Enduro Clear Poly. You should be able to spray it without much thinning with the 1.4 mm N/N in that HF gun.

John

[Steve Schoene]

Spraying is fine, but given the clean up, for me it's only for very large projects. But applying dye mixed from water soluble powder can work well. I apply the dye really generously--flooding it on with a sponge. Start from the bottom up so that any drips fall on surfaces still wet. With the very wet surfaces the dye soaks in quite evenly and avoids blotching. You can use the same sponge as you applied the dye, squeeze it out a bit, and use it to remove puddles. KEY: you control the intensity of color by controlling the concentration of the dye color in the water. All gets fully saturated, the color doesn't rely on even application, just on quick liberal application.

You MUST test the dye solution on the same wood as the project. Also remember that you can't really tell the final result of the test until you have applied at least a coat of the top coat. Dried dye can look just awful until it is top coated.

[Prashun Patel]

I spray ethanol-based dye. If it's waterbased - then I flood on with a sponge. Ethanol dries to fast to wipe (for me) and the water dries too slow to spray without runs.

Clear Poly is easy to spray. It's also easy to clean up; Soap and water (I add Windex). It's also easy to set up a spray area; I just tarp off the garage and set up a regular fan. The overspray can cause a white mist on uncovered items but it quickly wears off and sweeps up. No stickiness.

[Julie Moriarty]

I'm with Steve on this one but instead of a sponge I wet rag it on. I've never had problems with witness lines flooding dye on. As for blotching, my experience is that depends on the wood. If a sample blotches, use a seal coat first, such as dewaxed shellac. From what I've seen though, rarely do you get the rich, deep color dye can produce after a seal coat. When I've run across wood that blotches, I switch to a different wood.

[Wayne Lomman]

I use a combination of spray and wipe for dye application. Spraying alone does not produce the necessary depth of colour. It also has a tendency to lay down in a turbulent way that is not quite even and true. The solution to this is to spray slightly wet and then wipe off. You proceed through the job section by section. It is necessary to work in the correct order so that witness lines are avoided and they are avoidable with hand application.

One of the key considerations is to adjust the drying time of the dye to suit your technique. If using solvent dye, balance thinner and turpentine to get the right drying time. If using water or alcohol based, balance these off against each other and you get the open time you need.

Whichever application method you use, work fast. Dye is not for leisurely use. You need to work confidently and remember where you have been. It greys off very quickly and you don't get the colour back until the first clear is applied.

For a larger job, make yourself a reference sample. This is a scrap stained to the colour you want with a single coat of clear applied. Constantly compare your work to this as staining proceeds. You can see the final colour for a few seconds after the stain is applied and this is enough time to check against the sample. This minimises colour matching later.

The risks with flooding on the stain are mostly associated with take up at the end grain. I used to stain this way early in my career but was soon set straight. Flooding causes darker streaks back into the timber at edges, where shelves meet end panels, makes turnery very dark as well as causes blotching. This is an effect if that is what you want but it is not delivering a blended and matched colour. Blotching is entirely avoidable with technique as I think I may have said elsewhere.

I should also add that I often use a combination of dye and pigment stains. All the staining materials are like pieces on a chess board. They can be used in many different ways but each element has its own rules of engagement with the whole process. Cheers

[Aaron carter]

I really appreciate all of the responses they are really helpful. Does anybody use floetrol with their water based dyes made from powder?

[Aaron carter]

I use a combination of spray and wipe for dye application. Spraying alone does not produce the necessary depth of colour. It also has a tendency to lay down in a turbulent way that is not quite even and true. The solution to this is to spray slightly wet and then wipe off. You proceed through the job section by section. It is necessary to work in the correct order so that witness lines are avoided and they are avoidable with hand application.

One of the key considerations is to adjust the drying time of the dye to suit your technique. If using solvent dye, balance thinner and turpentine to get the right drying time. If using water or alcohol based, balance these off against each other and you get the open time you need.

Whichever application method you use, work fast. Dye is not for leisurely use. You need to work confidently and remember where you have been. It greys off very quickly and you don't get the colour back until the first clear is applied.

For a larger job, make yourself a reference sample. This is a scrap stained to the colour you want with a single coat of clear applied. Constantly compare your work to this as staining proceeds. You can see the final colour for a few seconds after the stain is applied and this is enough time to check against the sample. This minimises colour matching later.

The risks with flooding on the stain are mostly associated with take up at the end grain. I used to stain this way early in my career but was soon set straight. Flooding causes darker streaks back into the timber at edges, where shelves meet end panels, makes turnery very dark as well as causes blotching. This is an effect if that is what you want but it is not delivering a blended and matched colour. Blotching is entirely avoidable with technique as I think I may have said elsewhere.

I should also add that I often use a combination of dye and pigment stains. All the staining materials are like pieces on a chess board. They can be used in many different ways but each element has its own rules of engagement with the whole process. Cheers

This is great stuff thanks for your feedback!!

[Jim Becker]

I really appreciate all of the responses they are really helpful. Does anybody use floetrol with their water based dyes made from powder?

Umm...Floetrol is fine with water borne paints, but water soluble dye is a completely different animal.

[Richard Feltner]

Wow where to start?

I went down this rabbit hole once too. I work with a lot of cherry so minimizing blotching is a big issue. Following Jeff Jewitts approach really worked for me. I use Transtint dyes mixed with denatured alcohol and add in a small (less than 20% by volume) amount of dewaxed shellac. The shellac does two things. First it gives you a very good approximation while spraying of what the dye with topcoat will look like and secondly it helps as a binder by slightly bonding the dye thereby making it a bit resistant to the first top coat.

I use a Fuji HVLP with a number 2 aircap because it enables me to adjust the transfer of material down very low. And the HVLP gives you great control of airflow - you want the ratio of air to material to be correctly balanced. Done right it should sound relaxed and easy not all noisy and hissy (too much air). You are looking to spray a slightly damp coat that isn't too dry or too gritty. You can build up the stain to the tonality you desire in subsequent coats. Dry time is next to instantaneous.

On cherry I don't wipe the stain or it will blotch. On other woods if you want to wipe - up the material and air flow - just flood it on as all you are doing is using the gun to get max fluid down on the surface. Of course you wouldn't add shellac or use alcohol (water only). If spraying and building up the tone as described above then end grain is not a problem.

Applying dye stains by wiping is not for the faint of heart. I'd suggest Mr. Jewitts book as he has some great insights and techniques for that.

The first top coat you spray should be on the light side to lock down the stain. A too heavy coat will cause the dye to release which can cause a muddying effect which obscures the grain. Spray a minimum of three coats before you use your scraper flat to dress the nibs. Follow with red Mirka Mirlon to scuff the surface for the next topcoat(s). Using GF HiPerformance you can stain and lay the first three coats down in one day. Overnight dry, scuff and then add subsequent topcoats the next day.

I'd suggest a visit to Homestead Finishings website to download the material spec sheets and info.

You can spray any brand dye following a similar process. I've done the shellac as a seal coat in various incarnations. It can be time consuming and not all that consistent. If you only have one small cabinet great, but if you are doing something larger well...

Also if you are looking for an integrated system of dyes and pigment stains check out Sherwin Williams BAC (Blend A Color) line. They have dyes for undercoats with pigments over - cool stuff.

[Wayne Lomman]

Interesting technique Richard. What you are doing is more toning that applying dye. For me a toner (made up somewhat like your brew) is used for final colour matching before the final clear coat is applied. The binder is a little bit of whatever clear coat is being used. The colour is the base dye adjusted with red, green, blue, black or yellow primary colours in the correct mix to bring the job up to what is required.

It is also worth remembering that sanding different areas with finer grits before staining is good practice. Coarser sanding takes up more stain, finer sanding less stain. Preparation is a significant contributor to colour. Cheers

[Richard Feltner]

A toner is topcoat mixed with a dye or suitable colorant. The small amount of shellac mixed into the dye in this case will not qualify the resulting mix as a toner. It simply gives you the ability to see the dye closer to its final "color" when initially sprayed. The binding properties are minimal due to the small amount being added to the dye. I recently completed the refurbishment of an entry door where the finish started to fail in certain spots. The GF gurus suggested that I tone the appropriate areas to match color as needed. For that I used GF exterior hi performance water base with an appropriate amount of dye added to create a match toner. Since it is a topcoat it could be applied over a topcoat without the usual stripping of the existing topcoat (provided base chemistries are compatible and surfaces are scuffed). I guess you could scuff, apply shellac to isolate and lock down the existing surface finish and then spray the dye and follow with a topcoat. The toner allowed me to easily "tone" the failed areas to match the good areas. I applied a couple of final topcoats overall to ensure longevity. Jeff Jewitt's book Complete Guide to Finishing really covers the nuances in detail as well as explaining the terminology of all the various brews used by pro finishers (of which I am most assuredly _not_ one!).