Ichihiro vs Jindaiko (Stan Covington's and Usui's blacksmith).

[Jessica de Boer]

Last week my parents stayed with us a couple of days and my dad took 3 of his Ichihiro oire-nomis with him because we wanted to do a comparison between them and my Jindaikos. We took my dad's Ichihiros and 3 of my Jindaikos in the same size and we first sharpened them. We started with my Richard Kell No.2 honing guide and we put the same angle on all 6 chisels. We finished on my green natural finishing stone. I have found this stone is a very good indicator of how hard a chisel is. The rate of metal removal was virtually identical but we already knew this would most likely be the case. We then compared how they cut and my dad and I agreed his Ichihiros cut a little bit better. The difference is small though. Next up was a chopping test in hard white oak, Cherry and Pine to test the toughness. Now it was the other way around and we both felt Jindaiko pulled ahead but as before the difference was small. If I had to choose based solely on performance I would pick Jindaiko and my dad would stay with his Ichihiros. This comes down to a preference for toughness or cutting performance but you can't really go wrong with either brand. What I found quite amazing is that this unknown blacksmith makes chisels that are on par with Ichihiro for such a low price. They have to be the best chisels made in Japan right now from a price vs performance standpoint.

[Vincent Tai]

Thanks for the info Jessica. Ichihiro's work is something else in term of the finish. I am also amazed at this hidden smith and the pricing. Will have to seriously think about picking up a set as a necessary benchmark. Are your dad's Ichihiro's the file and polished finished ones or the Koro-Oxide finished ones? If it's the latter can you remember how the sen marks look in the back hollow? I am curious as to what degree Ichihiro would leave the sen finish at in the back, a coarser finished straight off the usual coarsely honed sen is supposed to be better/make it easier at retaining the clay and therefore building a more "even" and substantial oxide film. A sen scraped hollow that has had it's ridges even out a little so the "hairlines" are more fine and even means the sen was worked with a coarse stone. Often times the oxide finish in these sort of hollows are more thin and mottled in appearance. Sometimes they are not; If Ichihiro can achieve a velvet black with a fine hairline finish, means he must have adjusted the clay slip mixture.

I have been trying to experiment with different clay mixtures and different sen finishes and a little insight to Ichihiro's methods might help me greatly. There was a youtube video of him forging and sen scraping, clay mixture etc, but it has gone private and I can't find any other copies even on the J Govt broadcast website home to the broadcaster of the documentary. I had viewed the quite video a few times early in my HS years then after a couple years of not being able to make anything I concentrated on the wood side of things for a little while. When I turned to expand on metal work the video was gone. The only trace of it is some blog posts of the video which are helpful even very detailed in putting the dialogue of his HT and temperature ranges and sequences in forging but some words are lost in translation. Like the whole clay slip and oxide film thing. A real shame I didn't study the video more four-five years ago.

Thanks,

Vincent

[Jessica de Boer]

Ichihiro's work is something else in term of the finish.

I actually like the finish on my Jindaikos more. Ichihiro is almost too perfect and with my Jindaikos you can clearly see the blacksmith's hand.

Are your dad's Ichihiro's the file and polished finished ones or the Koro-Oxide finished ones? If it's the latter can you remember how the sen marks look in the back hollow?

They are the black oxide finished ones and I certainly remember how the ura looks, I've used my dad's Ichihiros more times than I can remember. The sen marks are quite fine and the oxide film is gone for a large part. Not surprising since they are over 3 decades old. I have no idea how thick the oxide film was when they were new because I was 13 or 14 when I first used them.

[Vincent Tai]

Thanks Jessica. I hadn’t thought about the oxide film wearing away; I see far too many pictures of pristine unused Ichihiros. Perhaps they really are too close to perfect looking if people won’t use them! Though in all fairness they’ll only grow in value...

[Brian Holcombe]

Similar to my experience with them, they’re excellent chisels. They’re on par with all of my good white steel chisels for edge retention.

Vincent check out the finish left by Kunikei, he gets such a uniform Black it is amazing.

[Jessica de Boer]

check out the finish left by Kunikei, he gets such a uniform Black it is amazing

A very uniform black oxide film makes me a bit suspicious, like the blacksmith used a chemical maybe to achieve it after the final tempering. It doesn't look natural to me.

[Brian Holcombe]

Judge for yourself;

[Vincent Tai]

A very uniform black oxide film makes me a bit suspicious, like the blacksmith used a chemical maybe to achieve it after the final tempering. It doesn't look natural to me.

I'm sure that there are many of the mass manufacturers doing this. No way a Grizzly Japanese chisel is going to be clay slipped and charcoal HTed. I know of one smith who uses it once in a while when he does refurbishment on weathered chisels. A few ways to tell is if the steel (especially the hagane) is quite smooth and if it still is uniformly black then it is a chemical finish. In areas where the steel must be a touch smoother like in many Kanna situation then a more mottled and lighter oxide is unavoidable. Kiyohisa and Konobu kannas are good examples of this, In some angles for some photos you can make it seem like a pretty uniform black but a good well lit photo shows that the hagane has a nice light and mottled finish. Transition into the jigane where the sen lines are quite apparent and then you have a nice velvet black finish. Note the grinder lines on the Ura of Brian's chisel; they are essential for a kuro oxide film of this level for the jigane portion.

A chemical finish is also much thinner, noticeably so. It is also usually a little off in colour, either in the brown or blue tint. And the shine it can have... ugh. A kuro finish from the forge environment and clay has that noticeable matte velvet look and feel which a chemical one does not.


https://youtu.be/B7Izy9a9m8k?t=807
Here is a video of Murray Carter a Japanese trained knife smith doing his thing. I've linked it from where the clay slip is applied. You can skip through it a bit but the point is until after rough grinding and rough honing the remaining clay slip is left from after quench and tempering; you can watch him remove and explain how he's removing the clay slip. A very uniform black oxide he is achieving. You also can't do any sort of chemical finish until the steel is very clean and bare. I'm sure he didn't think that his video would become self proof of the kuro oxide but it does demonstrate the point quite well and in English.

Personally I like a uniform black finish, but some smiths in Japan would find it too "pretty" etc. Too pretty includes nice uniformly stamped marks, engraving, file work, perfect ura etc. Each to their own, I can appreciate a rough finish too. A well done black oxide finish speaks to how a smith spent the time to craft his slip, tune it, test it etc. A nice little step. Of course though the steel's performance is all that really matters.

Brian, thanks for the photo. A very nice pair of chisels, I drool and have a headache when I look at that forge weld on the smaller chisel. Headache comes from trying to think about how I would go about making that. Head aches also come from thinking how the smith would remove clay from the stamp marks/ engraving. I actually still haven't removed all the clay from this kanna, the engraving is quite deep. I have half the mindset that in deep bold engraving like this the smith just rubs some gold powder and binder in when the clay is stubborn and no money is made from sitting around armed with a toothbrush. I suppose this explains why Chiyozuru Sadahide II and Naohide don't bother to clay the top portion of their work. Doesn't mix well with deep engraving. Yokoyama famous for a rough finish ( I think So said something like He just doesn't care about Ura shape at all) has a kew kannas with a bit of gold in the stamp, I wonder if he had to resort to it when a clay slip turned quite stubborn.

These photos show a not too good kuro finish. A rather ugly ura, that's my own lazy fault. I had another HT test the other night with a failed kanna just to test a new clay mixture, I think I might try cutting out charcoal entirely from the clay slip for the next test.



Couple shots of my first completed kanna-ba. Not too bad for my first. Not very good in the big picture.
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[Brian Holcombe]

Nice work! You're certainly making great progress turning out kuro ura.

Here is a new one from Konobu, I have not had a chance to touch it other than to hang it up on the rack.





Konobu I've had for a few years now with a clean sen finish on the ura and black everywhere else.





Here is a Kikuhiromaru that I tightened up the file work on, then refinished with a chemical agent. I made new handles for these chisels and so wanted to tidy them up.

[Vincent Tai]

Brian, the Konobu set up so they can be maintained with uradashi are always on my mind. Probably my favourite in terms of appearance. How deep is the hollow at it's deepest point? Has it made maintenance noticeably easier? I am thinking about a couple of skew paring chisels for plane making.

[Brian Holcombe]

Yeah, I do enjoy them. It makes setting up the backs really quick and easy, I actually do uradashi on all of them but it is easier still to be able to work all the way across on these where the chisels with support along their sides can only be tapped between those supports.

I can typically setup the back of a plane or one of these chisels in 5-10 min.