Paul Sellers an amateur woodworker

[Van Huskey]

I have a pro basketball video that switched the odds for entertainment.

While Uncle Drew (Kyrie Irving) way overmatches the competition in the Pepsi videos if he had done that at the Rucker or Happy Warrior courts the results wouldn't not have been so lopsided and it is quite possible Uncle Drew would have been shut down.

As for the mentor issue just because someone is "The Great One" doesn't mean they are a good mentor or teacher. From a pure CV point of view most everyone here would recognize the name of one of my professional mentors from the national political stage, he was one of the best in our field but a horrid mentor/teacher. I learned ten times as much from guys with 25% of his ability.

[Van Huskey]

These days no fellows can draw people to buy a woodworking tool (known or little known, new or vintage) than two woodworkers through social media: One is Sellers (and the other is Schwarz). Sellers could have made product sponsorship another major source of his income if he had gone that path. Look at what happened to the Aldi chisels. For the record, Sellers does not promote wax or stickers.

Simon

I am not sure about that. Jimmy D, Marc S, April W and Jay B each have MUCH more SM exposure than Chris and Paul combined. Get any one of them to hawk a sub $10 item like the Aldi chisels and I bet they could move the needle more. Selling something cheap but hardy is mainly about eyeballs. Subs give you an idea of the number of people that value the person's opinion enough to continue to watch. Now I think had say Marc introduced the Aldi chisels to the world there might be less discussion by the usual suspects on handtool forums. I will say that if Paul is monetizing youtube properly he should be making more on his youtube account than his Masterclasses. I bet Marc makes more on The Guild. None of this has anything to do with ones actual woodworking talent where Paul is certainly in another class altogether.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi Fred,
I'd offer you two answers -
1. He's an amateur woodworker but a professional educator. He appears to earn income from educating, but not from building things out of wood for clients as a trade per se.

2. Paul Sellers is British, and the (traditional) distinction between amateur and professional in the UK is different than that in the United States. To simplify the distinction, in traditional Britain, the professional is a tradesman, who may be very competent, but is still a tradesman fulfilling a task on a repetitive basis in the performance of a trade. An amateur is working for a higher purpose, perhaps like an artist, for the love of and commitment to the craft. In this definition, the factor of money and income only degrades the purity of this commitment. This attitude is commonly held by artists. I would bet good money (ha!) that Sellers aspires to this latter definition being a purist and traditionalist. Maybe his reference has more to do with attitude than literal pay vs. no pay.

These are just my speculations, but there you have them. I wonder if David Charlesworth could illuminate us further on whether the cultural theory holds any water. Best,
Edwin

BTW, I met Mr. Krenov and attended one of his lectures. He unequivocally referred to himself as an amateur woodworker. By way of example, he said he made and gave away dozens, maybe hundreds of hand planes, pouring his care into the construction of each, and would never dream of charging money for one. Although he didn't care for the term artist either.

Good points Edwin. Especially on the difference between American and Brittish English - I never even considered that "amateur" might literally mean something different to Mr. Sellers. It's a point worth considering. Though as others have said, the man's certainly earned the right to call himself whatever he'd like. (How many of us get to contribute to the White House collection, after all?)

Wish I could have studied with Mr. Krenov - even just for a weekend. I've watched him lecture on video, but I'll bet he was better in person.

Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

Derek wrote: ".......In short, he uses all tools that get him across the line of time without sacrificing quality..................."

Mr. Skelly also quoted this (see above). I would dare to modify it a bit: "........In short, he uses all tools and techniques that get him across the line of time without sacrificing quality....." I hope I'm not overstepping here.

I like your addition Richard. Very true!
Fred

[Simon MacGowen]

I am not sure about that. Jimmy D, Marc S, April W and Jay B each have MUCH more SM exposure than Chris and Paul combined. .

Excuse my ignorance...is these guys' focus mostly on traditional woodworking? Since this discussion takes place in the Neanderthal section, all my references to people are about those whose practice (other than for the purpose of stock preparation) and key interest are in or with hand tools. I don't think I have seen their names in any traditional woodworking events organized by various parties such as LN, FW, Benchcrafted, PWW, etc. in the past decade. Neither did their names ring a bell to me when I tried to relate them to woodworking schools such as Marc Adams, North Bennet Street School. etc.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

By the way we have another July 25th 1965... during this threads life Paul has gone electric, just like Dylan did over 50 years ago. He did pick the correct machine though... and I will be watching the bandsaw videos intently.

There is a misconception about Sellers's view on power tools. Well before his latest bandsaw episode, Sellers has maintained that he does use power tools. Of course, other than the cordless drills, he is rarely seen in any of his videos working with a power tool or machine. In his old place, he had given most of the lumber preparation (jointing/thicknessing) to another woodworker to do who happened to be operating out of the same building. I am pretty sure that unless he does not sleep, he is not doing stock preparation for his online class/youtube all by hand. It is most likely that stock preparation is the responsibility of someone else either in his team or an outsider.

Simon

[Mark Hennebury]

Sellers labels himself in youtube or instagram (?) as an amateur woodworker, not a fine furniture maker or instructor. I wondered for some time why he does so.
Simon

Simon, To answer your original question;

One could call themselves an amateur to convey the idea of the motivation with which they approach their work.

To show which camp they belong to.

They are primarily motivated by either, the love of what they do ( amateur) or by the love of what they get for what they do ( professional)

Both groups can do good work and both can get paid, the difference is in what is the priority driving force of the person.

[Charles Guest]

Here's a professional furniture shop, with a name, a history, and a brand (for point of reference):

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/

The people employed in the shop, those who've finished an apprenticeship and were offered a permanent position, are professional furniture-makers as of course are the principals.

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk...annual-review/

[Simon MacGowen]

Here's a professional furniture shop, with a name, a history, and a brand (for point of reference):

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/

The people employed in the shop, those who've finished an apprenticeship and were offered a permanent position, are professional furniture-makers as of course are the principals.

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk...annual-review/

Alan Peters who spent 5 years there!

Some of their pieces have the David Savage feel.

Simon

[Mark Hennebury]

Earnest Gimson. Edward Barnsley, Jacque Emile Ruhlmanm

2014_CSK_05868_0133_000(ernest_gimson_a_fine_cabinet_commissioned_by_adam_black_1917).jpg ebony_cabinet_gimson_001.jpg mark-jones-antiques-1-Barnsley-cabinet-1.jpgfuseau-cabinet-by-jacques-emile-ruhlmann-1920s-1.jpg

[Mark Hennebury]

Here's a professional furniture shop, with a name, a history, and a brand (for point of reference):

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk/

The people employed in the shop, those who've finished an apprenticeship and were offered a permanent position, are professional furniture-makers as of course are the principals.

https://www.barnsley-furniture.co.uk...annual-review/

Very nice stuff, its nice to see that they get well paid for it too.

[Charles Guest]

Very nice stuff, its nice to see that they get well paid for it too.

Wouldn't be bad to land a paid apprenticeship:

Wage

Foundation Apprentices receive the current National Minimum Wage apprentice rate. Foundation Apprentices are entitled to twenty days of paid holiday in a year, plus the eight bank holidays.

Hours

The Workshop day is from 8 am to 4.30 pm. Apprentices may use the workshop after hours to work on their own projects providing they have obtained permission and there is another person in the workshop.

Tools

Apprentices have their own bench and tool storage area. We provide all the tools apprentices will need. They gradually build up their own kit but are advised to try out workshop ones before buying their own.

[Simon MacGowen]

Wouldn't be bad to land a paid apprenticeship:

Wage

Foundation Apprentices receive the current National Minimum Wage apprentice rate. Foundation Apprentices are entitled to twenty days of paid holiday in a year, plus the eight bank holidays.

The current rate is 3.7 British pound per hour, or less than $5 US.

Simon

[Mark Hennebury]

The current rate is 3.7 British pound per hour, or less than $5 US.

Simon

Perspective is everything
https://www.notgoingtouni.co.uk/advi...in-britain-495

[Simon MacGowen]

Perspective is everything
https://www.notgoingtouni.co.uk/advi...in-britain-495

The 3.7 pounds is above half of the current minimum wage in the UK (8 pounds plus starting 2019).

In my part of the world, the closest thing to apprenticeship is coop-programs where university students take a job as part of their 4 or 5-year degree programs. The coops are paid no less than the minimum wages, and the coop programs I know pay a monthly salary similar to an average worker makes (earning minimum rates). Jobs are almost guaranteed after graduation (because of networking, corporate evaluation or hands-on experience).

I do consider a lower rate for the apprenticeships a good thing, because only the determined ones will apply for admission.


Simon