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Thread: Paul Sellers an amateur woodworker

  1. #16
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    Sam Maloof, recognized with a MacArthur “genius” Grant, had simply "Woodworker" on his business card.

    Simon[/QUOTE]

    Titles, self appointed or bestowed mean little in woodworking.

    Case in point;

    Who were the people that bestowed the "Genius" title to Sam? a jury of his peers? Judged against what yardstick?
    Was his work judged against all others and determined to be head and shoulders above, on a higher level?
    Or was it just a matter of "who you know" that got him nominated and approved, or just that he was well known? Or made himself well known?
    Self promotion gets you a lot more recognition than any level of skill.
    Who are the judges, what are their credentials?
    What is the yardstick by which you determine the "best" woodworkers?
    Do we all get judged or just the chosen few that are well connected?

  2. #17
    Simon, agree with all. But they don't usually refer to them as business cards and they have them printed on expensive
    linen "stock".

  3. #18
    Titles, self appointed or bestowed mean little in woodworking.

    Case in point;

    Who were the people that bestowed the "Genius" title to Sam? a jury of his peers? Judged against what yardstick?
    Was his work judged against all others and determined to be head and shoulders above, on a higher level?
    Or was it just a matter of "who you know" that got him nominated and approved, or just that he was well known? Or made himself well known?
    Self promotion gets you a lot more recognition than any level of skill.
    Who are the judges, what are their credentials?
    What is the yardstick by which you determine the "best" woodworkers?
    Do we all get judged or just the chosen few that are well connected?[/QUOTE]

    This is what they say about how fellows are chosen:

    https://www.macfound.org/programs/fellows/strategy/

    More info. for those interested:

    https://www.macfound.org/press/comme...genius-grants/

    Simon
    Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 11-10-2018 at 11:22 AM.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Fulks View Post
    Yes. But they still discriminate against professional wrestlers !
    It is really a joke, if not a scam, to suggest that the Games are for amateurs.

    Simon

  5. #20
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    Sam has work in the Smithsonian he gets all the titles.
    Modern day Master, Expert, Genuis,Amateur.
    His rocking chair design is still hundred years before it’s time. I doubt it will ever be bested
    Aj

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hughes View Post
    Sam has work in the Smithsonian he gets all the titles.
    Modern day Master, Expert, Genuis,Amateur.
    His rocking chair design is still hundred years before it’s time. I doubt it will ever be bested
    I understand that famous people get all the awards and accolades. And fame seems to be like a snowball that once started, just keeps growing and creates mythical creatures with unworldly powers.


    And i understand that you like Sams chair, but your statement is an opinion, and in no way shows it to be better than any other rocker.

    My point is once someone has a spotlight on them, everyone seems to have drunk the Koolaid and sees them as Gods. There are probably tens of thousands of people that do incredibly high quality work on a par with the ten famous ones.
    Unless we are told, by some organization that they are "good" no one would believe it. Collectively or individually we have little ability to make judgments on our own and need direction for some "credible authority" to feel able speak.

    Take modern art put in a garage sale, you wont get a second look, put it in a high end Gallery and organize a black tie event and everyone sees genius.
    when you have an item that is not immediately measurable, and is open to interpretation and opinion, then the right kind of promotion is all that counts.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    Titles, self appointed or bestowed mean little in woodworking.

    Case in point;

    Who were the people that bestowed the "Genius" title to Sam? a jury of his peers? Judged against what yardstick?
    Was his work judged against all others and determined to be head and shoulders above, on a higher level?
    Or was it just a matter of "who you know" that got him nominated and approved, or just that he was well known? Or made himself well known?
    Self promotion gets you a lot more recognition than any level of skill.
    Who are the judges, what are their credentials?
    What is the yardstick by which you determine the "best" woodworkers?
    Do we all get judged or just the chosen few that are well connected?
    This is what they say about how fellows are chosen:

    https://www.macfound.org/programs/fellows/strategy/

    More info. for those interested:

    Simon, i didn't see anywhere it stated that he was judged by a jury of "woodworking" experts, against all other woodworkers, or even that his work was compared in anyway to any others, just that it was some anonymous people nominated him and more anonymous people awarded him.


    Nominees are brought to the Program's attention through a constantly changing pool of invited external nominators chosen from as broad a range of fields and areas of interest as possible. They are encouraged to draw on their expertise, accomplishments, and breadth of experience to nominate the most creative people they know within their field and beyond.
    Nominations are evaluated by an independent Selection Committee composed of about a dozen leaders in the arts, sciences, humanities professions, and for-profit and nonprofit communities. Each nomination is considered with respect to the program's selection criteria, based on the nomination letter along with original works of the nominee and evaluations from other experts collected by the program staff.
    After a thorough, multi-step review, the Selection Committee makes its recommendations to the President and Board of Directors of the MacArthur Foundation. Announcement of the annual list is usually made in September. While there are no quotas or limits, typically 20 to 30 Fellows are selected each year. Since 1981, 1014 people have been named MacArthur Fellows.
    Nominators, evaluators, and selectors all serve anonymously and their correspondence is kept confidential. This policy enables participants to provide their honest impressions independent of outside influence.

    https://www.macfound.org/press/comme...genius-grants/

    Simon[/QUOTE]

  8. #23
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    Mark remember he was doing this in 1950 - 1960. Before the internet his work was measured up against what was happening then.
    In this area at that time the artist thing was happening and was hip. We had Millard sheets and other that would influence most anyone.
    And sam busted free with creative thinking and his chairs.
    Aj

  9. #24
    Nominations are evaluated by an independent Selection Committee composed of about a dozen leaders in the arts, sciences, humanities professions, and for-profit and nonprofit communities. Each nomination is considered with respect to the program's selection criteria, based on the nomination letter along with original works of the nominee and evaluations from other experts collected by the program staff.
    After a thorough, multi-step review, the Selection Committee makes its recommendations to the President and Board of Directors of the MacArthur Foundation. Announcement of the annual list is usually made in September. While there are no quotas or limits, typically 20 to 30 Fellows are selected each year. Since 1981, 1014 people have been named MacArthur Fellows.
    Nominators, evaluators, and selectors all serve anonymously and their correspondence is kept confidential. This policy enables participants to provide their honest impressions independent of outside influence.

    https://www.macfound.org/press/comme...genius-grants/

    Simon[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

    This is how most grants and prize awards work, including the Nobel Prize. They set the rules of the game; if you had the money to finance any grant, you would do the same, wouldn't you? I would. That is how grants and prizes, such as the James Krenov Foundation grant or fellowship prize, work in the real world.

    Simon

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hughes View Post
    Mark remember he was doing this in 1950 - 1960. Before the internet his work was measured up against what was happening then.
    In this area at that time the artist thing was happening and was hip. We had Millard sheets and other that would influence most anyone.
    And sam busted free with creative thinking and his chairs.

    Andrew,
    I like Sam's rocking chair, made several myself, and made some Krenov and nakashima style stuff. I found them all quite inspiring and enjoyed learning about how they thought and worked by making furniture in their different styles.
    That was a long time ago, i learned bits here and there and moved on. I have since seen many really good woodworkers and many incredible pieces of work done by " nobodies" and have come to the conclusion that "rockstars" aren't any better, at all.
    The fact that some people have the spotlight on them affects how we see them, a lot, and "our" opinions are not really ours, but influenced largely by the public.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    Nominations are evaluated by an independent Selection Committee composed of about a dozen leaders in the arts, sciences, humanities professions, and for-profit and nonprofit communities. Each nomination is considered with respect to the program's selection criteria, based on the nomination letter along with original works of the nominee and evaluations from other experts collected by the program staff.
    After a thorough, multi-step review, the Selection Committee makes its recommendations to the President and Board of Directors of the MacArthur Foundation. Announcement of the annual list is usually made in September. While there are no quotas or limits, typically 20 to 30 Fellows are selected each year. Since 1981, 1014 people have been named MacArthur Fellows.
    Nominators, evaluators, and selectors all serve anonymously and their correspondence is kept confidential. This policy enables participants to provide their honest impressions independent of outside influence.

    https://www.macfound.org/press/comme...genius-grants/

    Simon
    [/QUOTE]

    This is how most grants and prize awards work, including the Nobel Prize. They set the rules of the game; if you had the money to finance any grant, you would do the same, wouldn't you? I would. That is how grants and prizes, such as the James Krenov Foundation grant or fellowship prize, work in the real world.

    Simon[/QUOTE]

    Simon, So the whole " Genius" thing is a just an honoray title with no basis in any measurable achievement, and is purely the opinions of a few anonymous people that have no background in the profession.

    And that is enough for the population to accept the recipient as a genius.

    Like i said, its a bit of a joke.

  12. #27
    Simon, So the whole " Genius" thing is a just an honoray title with no basis in any measurable achievement, and is purely the opinions of a few anonymous people that have no background in the profession.

    And that is enough for the population to accept the recipient as a genius.

    Like i said, its a bit of a joke.[/QUOTE]

    If you followed the second link, you would find out that the "Genius" thing is not the making of the Foundation...it was coined by the media. For that matter, some Nobel Prize awards have been criticized and the recipients not deemed qualified. They have the money, they have the rules, and of course, they have the final say, anonymous or not.

    Simon
    Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 11-10-2018 at 1:47 PM.

  13. #28
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    Agreed so true. I don’t like that part of social media.
    Good discussion I really enjoyed it thanks.
    Andrew
    Aj

  14. #29
    Hmm. Wile E Coyote was also called a genius. Did other coyotes vote? Unless you believe in Plato's theory of forms, the designation of "genius" will always be subjective even if it's the subjective opinion of the entire woodworking community. In Maloof's case, his fame is quite a good measure of his genius to me. The fact that so many recognize and try to copy his style is both the source of his fame and the best measure of his genius.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Rathhaus View Post
    Hmm. Wile E Coyote was also called a genius. Did other coyotes vote? Unless you believe in Plato's theory of forms, the designation of "genius" will always be subjective even if it's the subjective opinion of the entire woodworking community. In Maloof's case, his fame is quite a good measure of his genius to me. The fact that so many recognize and try to copy his style is both the source of his fame and the best measure of his genius.

    I guess that sums up my point pretty well: if you are willing to make the quantum leap to "the most well known and popular must by default be the most skilled", then you will overlook a lot of really talented people who are not so well known, and perhaps elevate those in the spotlight to a lofty height far above what they have earned by any merit.

    If you google "river tables" or "pallet furniture" or "barn board furniture" you will see hundreds of millions of results, so they are quite popular and widely copied, "works of genius" by your criteria. Check out Youtube to see what are the most popular vidoes, it's mostly, people being stupid.

    It would seem that in furniture making, advertising is king.

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