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Thread: Upgrading 10" cabinet saw

  1. #1
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    Upgrading 10" cabinet saw

    Recently bit the bullet and completely rearranged my shop layout, electrical, and ductwork with new flooring and slatwall. While moving things around, it also made it easier to get over the hump of upgrading certain tools. For example, if you are about to move a 12" jointer anyways, why not just move it out of your house completely and move in a 20"? Im having similar thoughts with my unisaw. Several years ago i bought a few of these at auction and converted them to single phase and flipped for a profit. I kept one, and it was my upgrade from a delta contractor saw. I say this, because on one hand i essentially have a new unisaw(bearings, belts, starter, baldor motor), but on the other hand its starting to feel insufficient. The table is pretty small, 3hp doesnt scream through 8/4+ like marketing materials would have you believe, and recently handling an old PM72 made me realize I may be missing out on something. For the added footprint(somewhat inconsequential), the PM was almost twice the saw. I have since sold the PM to make a quick buck, but it has left a lasting impression on me. In the last month, i missed out on another 72, and recently a Wadkin PKF(kudos to the man that got that from me in the last day or two for a song). The wadkin is most of the reason im starting this thread, actually. It is a saw i would have never considered purchasing a few months ago.

    What im looking for is something bigger with a 5-7.5hp motor used primarily for ripping with a rare need for a dado stack. In the future, i will most likely add a feeder to it. My limitations are it needs to fit through a 33" mandoor. Other than that, i am open to suggestions. I dont mind working on machines, but i wouldnt say im particularly skilled--im not remaking parts etc like Brian. While this saw will be used in my part time hustle making some income, i wouldnt mind something slightly out of the ordinary. I was drawn to the PKF for 1) price 2)5hp and perfect size for my basement 3)aesthetics and somewhat rare. Similar reasons for why i wont consider a rockwell 12/14, those saws look like unimaginative turds to me.

  2. #2
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    Hi Patrick - I went through this same decision process this past summer regarding my 20 year old 3 HP Unisaw. I looked at upgraded cabinet saws and Euro sliders.

    Although I was very close to pulling the trigger on a slider (thanks to all the great comments here on the Creek), the size of my shop and my comfort with a cabinet saw in general finally help me make the final decision.

    For my basement shop I ended up with a new 5 HP ICS SawStop. I have to say I love it and I'd do it again, given the same set of constraints. Clearly, YMMV.

    FYI - After seeing what I would get for my used Unisaw, I ended up keeping it and I have dedicated it to dado work.

  3. #3
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    Patrick, what is your priority regarding a new SS type machine and an old iron type? The old iron choices would be Oliver 270, 260, Greenlee 495, Tannewitz, Whitney, etc. I like a short stroke slider but if you don't need that, the fixed table saws like a Whitney 177 or 77 can be had pretty cheap. I have a 177 plug and play fixed table but not restored, and a restored PK that I use little because I have other saws. While a restored PK will be expensive, any fixed table saw mentioned above will be in the 750-2000 range if in good condition and plug and play. I have a Rockwell 12 and while it is a great saw, I agree with you that there is nothing compelling about the machine when compared to the Whitney or Robinson. Dave

  4. #4
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    Yep, a bit more clarification. I have a Felder 700, so looking for a heavier NA style saw. While the industrial sawstop is a nice saw--actually the first table saw i ever used at the university shop-- theres no way in hell im paying that much for a 10" saw under 1000lbs. That wadkin I missed was $300, which stings a bit. It looked beat to hell though, so it was going to be a fair amount of coin to get it to where id want it, but for the first time in my life, i actual felt a bit of a draw to own something pre-war. Like i mentioned, i thought a 72 would be perfect, and i bought a shell of a saw for next to nothing a few months ago. That project was death by a thousand cuts and i ended up getting rid of it and pocketing a decent profit. There were too many missing pieces to buy and have machined for me to deal with it.

    I know a lot of people warned me about the front to back depth of the PM72, but i played around with it enough to feel comfortable using a saw that size. Aside from the rockwell 12/14 and PM68-72, i simply dont know what i dont know. For example, for all i know the fixed table PK could be the equivalent of the classic british roadster--spend more time working on it than using it. That is kinda the purpose of this thread. What models are worth owning to use let alone look at? I need to get it through the door and thats about the only criteria im putting on it. It doesnt need to be a slider. I might even prefer it not to be a slider, just more stuff to adjust and spend more money on crosscutting blades etc.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Kane View Post
    I know a lot of people warned me about the front to back depth of the PM72, but i played around with it enough to feel comfortable using a saw that size.
    The blade is obnoxiously far out in the field of the deck on those saws.

    The only two old saws I've ever used are Northfield #4's, (a bunch of those) and my Tannewitz type U. The Northfield has a much heavier build, but I really like my Tannewitz, even though it has had a fairly rough 80 years. I don't think either of those saws would go through a 2-10 door. Maybe the Tannewitz, but without measuring I feel like no way on the Northfield. I think both of them the tops are doweled and come off pretty easily. I know it's easy on the Tannewitz since I had to yank the top off so my electrician could get at the dog house on the motor to change voltages.

  6. #6
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    The Rockwell 12 was my first saw so I got used to the depth in front of the blade and prefer it when ripping especially with a fence that moves front to back like a Unifence of what Felder has. Old US saws are pretty simple machines with little to break or that can't be fixed. Everything is so heavy. Gears that are delrin or plastic on new machines are brass or steel on old ones. The tilt and elevation mechanisms have thrust bearings and heavy wheels. The trunnions will be supported by the cast iron base and most will be direct drive. Depth of cut will suffer but the smooth running quality is tough to describe. Bearings will be huge in comparison to new with much great load capability. They will usually have a stub arbor that screws to the direct drive motor arbor so you can change size and length. Unless replaced, the fence will be fastened with pins. I like the system but it is not as good with a feeder as the Rockwell fence that locks in front and back. Whitney made arguably the best table saw in the US but that is like comparing children. Yours is always the cutest. The Whitney was a more simple and fool proof design than found in English saws and the open base allows your feet to stand close enough to get close to the top. It is hard to describe but there is something about an old direct drive saw, table and band, and jointer that make me happy. For a planer i'd rather have a newer Tersa. Condition is key but there isn't the risk with a table saw that there is for other machines. They are fairly simple. Dave

  7. #7
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    Patrick have you ever used a Canadian made General 350/650 ? I have owned and sold a bunch of Unisaws,my main saw for years. When I used my buddies General I was blown away. No vibration ,smoooth and seems to have a faster blade r.p.m. 4000 maybe ? It would fit thru your door,but really will not do anything the Uni won't .It does have more precision and heft though.Mike.

  8. #8
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    I have not used a general product before. I know people tend to put their 10" model on par with the PM66. And while i would agree that the 66 is probably a better machine than the delta unisaw, its not substantially better. In other words, it wouldnt be worth ripping apart another 20-30 year old saw to step up to a 66/general over my unisaw. It would just be a change of scenery. I dont want to paint the picture that im unhappy with my unisaw, its not a bad saw by any means. Its just as my exposure/experience to other machines increases, so do my expectations. Its kinda like when i first brought home a used DJ-20 jointer. I was impressed with the size and performance over my dinky rigid 6" machine that wobbled and moved around when i used it. After some time passed being around a few 12-16" jointers, I sorta had that, "oh...." moment of realization. Truth be told, i had that realization the first time i had a 8.25-8.5" wide board to go over that machine, but you really dont get it until you see and use other machines. The unisaw can feel really small to me at times when im wrestling a 8-10' long 8/4 board through the machine. That 8-10" of runway before the blade seems woefully inadequate when you are lining up an awkward workpiece like i just mentioned.

    Interestingly enough, the Whitney 177 base will fit through the door. Theres one for sale for $800 on the other side of the state that might be an option. For the life of me, i cannot find base dimensions for a Tannewitz XJ. The U model will fit. The Oliver 260 would be really tight, but it would fit. The 270 would fit no problem. The Wadkin PK would also fit through the door without a top. Anyone with an XJ care to measure the base? Dont want to create unnecessary competition for that saw, but if it would fit there are quite a few on the auction block this week. One in particular is about 45-60 min drive for me. I think the XJ is bigger than the U, which means it probably wont fit.

    The safest bet and easiest machine would be the powermatic 72. If one popped up cheap enough with that big extension wing, i would probably be all over it. Its stress free knowing accessories are easy to obtain, same for blades that arent $200+ a piece, and a splitter/guard would be easy off the shelf purchases. But wheres the fun in easy?

  9. #9
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    Patrick where about do you live? I’ve been watching a PM72 on central Ohio’s Craigslist. Still priced at $1500. There’s also JA Fay & Egan 511 16” tilting arbor saw for $500 that certainly has the “look” to it. Appears to need some TLC. Both saws are three-phase. If central Ohio is close enough to you, and you need help finding the adds, let me know. I was posting Craigslist “finds” in the deals and discounts section but the posts never generate a lot of views. Seems more efficient to point people to stuff when they ask for something.

  10. #10
    Tannewitz, moak monotrol (awesome table saw to operate) greenlee 495, northfield #4, gomad, Fortis, etc.

  11. #11
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    Andrew,

    Im in Pittsburgh. Are you talking about the gold 72 in Medina? I havent contacted him, because $1600-1700 is more than i want to pay for a 3 phase machine in need of conversion and TLC. As a comparison, my 72 shell without a motor or switch cost me $150. Maybe im a cheap SOB, but the deals are always present with enough patience. I actually have a gold 72 for sale 30 mins from me that i went to look at. Its a salvage company that wants 1500-1700 for it and a cabinet full of blades. Did they lighten these machines over the years? This gold 72(still made in the USA) did not look or feel as heavy as the 60s machine i had. I keep mulling that saw over in my head, and it might work for the price. I would need it for like $1200, i think, which they did not accept. Even then, i didnt look forward to ebaying 20-30 large diameter blades. I did not see that Fay and Egan, but i just found it and that is a proper barn find. Once again, maybe im cheap, but that machine would have to be close to free for me to go in there and drag it out of the barn and refurbish it. By the looks of it, its sat in the indirect elements for potentially decades. Lots of work associated with that purchase.

    The Martin T17 in Chicago looks like an interesting machine. Ive never seen a short stroke vintage slider from Martin,only the bigger T75. Too big unfortunately, i think. Plus, i dont really need another slider in the basement.

  12. #12
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    I've worked my way up in table saws for my home shop during the 60 years of the woodworking part of my life, and I was never pleased with any of them, until I bought a mid 80's Unisaw, with a 52" Unifence, cleaned it up, and put it into use. I am now no longer in search of a better saw. It's incredibly accurate and the 3 hp single phase 240 volt motor provides all of the power that I have ever needed, and I only paid $550 for the saw when I bought it plus another $35 or so for the belts and arbor bearings.

    The 12" saws are much bigger, their blades require 1" arbor holes, and cost considerably more than the equivalent 10" diameter 5/8" arbor hole blade. The saw's blade to front of table distance is considerably more (almost double) and takes some getting used to as well. I use a Rockwell 12" saw where I work and I am always happier when I come back to my home shop and use my Unisaw.

    To my Unisaw, I have added new belts, arbor bearings, given it a good cleaning, added a Wixey DRO and a Peach Tree Woodworking Uni-T-Fence, so now I can quickly switch from the original fence extrusion to the Uni-T-Fence and back as my needs change. The Uni-T-Fence is a square extrusion with T slots on the top and side, so it's easier to attach feather boards and other accessories, but I still use the original Unifence extrusion because of it's high / low fence capability. Both fences attach to the Unifence main casting the same way. Unisaws are plentiful enough and didn't change in design much over the years, so the older ones in better condition aren't very expensive and don't take much to clean them up and restore their cutting quality. Of course, everyone wants a SawStop, but their price is out of my range, and likely your's too. A Powermatic 66 is a Ford / Chevy kind of comparison to a Unisaw, but they seem to be less plentiful, or at least less available. I'm not familiar with the other models of Powermatic saws, only the 66, and I have never used any of the other saws that you and others have listed, so I cannot comment on them.

    The Uni-T-Fence extrusion is available from Peach Tree Woodworking in Atlanta, Ga https://www.ptreeusa.com/tablesaw_unifence.html. They also offer a 16" long version part #1111 for $29.95, although it is not listed in their online catalog. I have one of these and use it when using the fence as a stop while cross cutting many short pieces pieces and using the miter gauge. although the design of the Unifence allows the extrusion to be loosened and slid back to create any length fence that you may want. The long fence extrusion can even be pulled back and used like the shorter European saw fences, if you should desire. The downside to this is that the excess fence length, when pulled back this way, gets in the way of the saw operator.

    Charley

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by James Cheever View Post
    I ended up keeping it and I have dedicated it to dado work.
    Ohhhhhh, a dedicated dado saw. That's the epitome of luxury.

  14. #14
    What is the exact application? If this is a "part time hustle to make some money" what does that entail?

    I'm assuming if this is going in a basement its not an industrial setting. I say this because there is rarely a need for a saw >5HP outside of an industrial setting using power feeders, etc. And most of that is not because of motor size, but because the machines are running non stop many hours a day.

    FWIW I've worked in 2 commercial cabinet shops all they ran were 3HP machines and never felt the need for more power.

    My 3HP Jet rips through 8/4 maple, just fine so I'm not sure that's a valid reason :-).

    Not intending to be nosy or insult anyone, just got the impression you needed someone to give you a different slant.

  15. #15
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    Tables, counters, bars, islands etc. By no means does my hobby work or side hustle require a bigger saw with more power. The unisaw cuts wood just fine. But, i wouldnt mind having a bigger saw with more power and a feeder. The unisaw is a dedicated ripping/dado saw, and thats what a future saw would be. Ive only needed greater cutting capacity 4-5 times in the last year, but thats one area where you are kinda up the creek without a paddle. I can always use my bandsaw to rip boards to width and clean it up through the planer or jointer, but if you need an accurate bevel through thick stock, thats not something my LT20 will deliver easily/perfectly/consistently. I did two waterfall miters for a few bars, and the Felder almost paid for itself those two times cutting 2.75-3" stock at a 45°. The time before was done with a TS75 mostly through the piece followed up by a lot of fine tuning with a handplane. Anyways, capacity is something to write off until you really need it.

    I think i got the answers i was looking for. A few of the makes and models listed were actually brand new to me. Until Darcy mentioned Fortis, i would have assumed that was some generic POS. Not a name you hear very often. I just bought a PM68 this morning--I think so, photo was garbage--that ill take a look at, but more than likely flip for a profit. And just this morning a Tannewitz U showed up in town for $500 without a fence or miter gauge that i might take a look at tomorrow. I think ultimately im going to try for a PM72, just because the miter slot is standard, and a 12-14" blade gives a ton of capacity with a belt driven machine. I think it will fit the bill without being too much. In the meantime, i wont pass on something interesting that fits through the door. If the manual on vintage machinery can be trusted, that U base will fit through the door.

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