Wide flat sawn board opinion

[Andrew Goraj]

IMG_1441.jpgLooking for opinions. I've mainly been working with 6/4 RQSWO farm house style table tops lately with a lot of success.. In an effort to save some money, and my back, I want to switch over to flat sawn 4/4 white oak for the tops. However, now I'm afraid to glue up flat sawn boards this wide!

Lumber info
A lot of the boards are roughly 9 to 10" wide. Flatsawn white oak. They are 12' long. Boards came to me nice and dry, and my shop is 35% humidity and 72 degrees and they've been sitting for 3 weeks. Skip planed thus far to 15/16". The skip plane pretty much took em right down, since they were real flat to begin with. .

Project info
Table top will be 6' long by 36" wide. Farm style with turned legs. Home made table buttons fixing table top to aprons. Apron to leg is mortise and tenon joint.

So...Should I cut these 9-10"
Wide boards in half to 4.5" each and flip every other upside down for the glue up? Or just glue up the table top panel keeping the boards at 9" width ?

Additional side note. Since it's 4/4, I'm considering making the top extra long and wide, and cutting 2" off all sides and flipping the cut off underneath and laminating to the permitter to make it appear as though it's 1.5" Thick top. Would doing this help stabilize wide boards from cupping? The way I see it, for example, if the top was going to cup up, the 2" strip I cut off from the ends and flip/glue underneath it would want to "crown" (cup down), essentially opposing forces. Or is this bogus thinking?

What would you do? Cut em up, or leave em wide.

[John TenEyck]

I would leave them wide so that 4 boards gives you your 36". IMO, doubling the thickness around the perimeter will not help stop cupping, but you may want to do it for asthetics. More important is to finish the top equally both top and bottom and to attach it to the base of the table so that it's firmly held down but can still expand/contract across its width with seasonal changes in RH.

John

[Andrew Hughes]

I would use them just as they are. The board you have the tape on has a good balance of flat rift and quarter grain. It could only be better if I was centered perfectly.
Always arrange the boards for the best look.
I don’t agree with the false thickness edge treatment. I don’t think it fools anyone and can look like a work bench with a glue line near the edge.
Good Luck with your build

[Yonak Hawkins]

Like John, I would leave them wide. Also, I like your idea of trimming off 2" and attaching to the edges. In fact, I would make it 4" on the ends. Also, I would put a cross-grain brace behind the 4" trim pieces to help mitigate cupping and for stability.

[Paul Girouard]

IMG_1441.jpgLooking for opinions. I've mainly been working with 6/4 RQSWO farm house style table tops lately with a lot of success.. In an effort to save some money, and my back, I want to switch over to flat sawn 4/4 white oak for the tops. However, now I'm afraid to glue up flat sawn boards this wide!


So you are selling these tables with “a lot of success” Yet you want to switch to flat sawn , thinner lumber for the tops???

I’d see that as a good way to ruin that aforementioned success!!









Lumber info
A lot of the boards are roughly 9 to 10" wide. Flatsawn white oak. They are 12' long. Boards came to me nice and dry, and my shop is 35% humidity and 72 degrees and they've been sitting for 3 weeks. Skip planed thus far to 15/16". The skip plane pretty much took em right down, since they were real flat to begin with. .

Can you define “nice and dry” with a MC %? The rest sound good.







Project info
Table top will be 6' long by 36" wide. Farm style with turned legs. Home made table buttons fixing table top to aprons. Apron to leg is mortise and tenon joint.

So...Should I cut these 9-10"
Wide boards in half to 4.5" each and flip every other upside down for the glue up? Or just glue up the table top panel keeping the boards at 9" width ?


IF I where willing to change some success I’d had marketing a specific items like you are planning to and I where going to change from a QS board to a flat sawn or mixed grain lumber, I’d index the boards with chalk , I’d split each board down it center and re-glue them back together. Adding the glue joint would (should) add stability to the board, keeping track of each board and loosing as little of the grain match as possible would be my option.




Additional side note. Since it's 4/4, I'm considering making the top extra long and wide, and cutting 2" off all sides and flipping the cut off underneath and laminating to the permitter to make it appear as though it's 1.5" Thick top. Would doing this help stabilize wide boards from cupping? The way I see it, for example, if the top was going to cup up, the 2" strip I cut off from the ends and flip/glue underneath it would want to "crown" (cup down), essentially opposing forces. Or is this bogus thinking?


Adding the glued on to give the look of the thicker top would might help with the looks so that might fool some of the people some of the time, BUT it won’t change the fact that you’ve moved from a stable QS Lumber to a less stable flat sawn cut.



What would you do? Cut em up, or leave em wide.

Hopefully the blue font comes thru and you can differentiate between my comments and yours.

I’ll go back to that success you mentioned and question why one would monkey with what’s been working well.

[Andrew Seemann]

If you do use the flat sawn boards, whether as is or ripped in half and alternated, remember that you will have roughly twice the expansion and contraction across the width compared to quarter sawn boards. You will need to make sure your current design can handle the increased seasonal change. If it can't, you will need to modify it to handle more expansion and contraction.

[Andrew Goraj]

Great responses. Ill respond in the order received,

John, good call. I do use the same finishing schedule for top and bottom. To the point, I recently flipped a table top upside down at the last minute when mounting it, because the oil finish brought out better grain that my eyes had missed on the underside! Home made table buttons allow for lots of movement.

Andrew, have you laminated white oak like this? I would think the glue line would vanish in white oak. Might be more visible in something like Walnut?

Yonak, cross grain brace is a good idea. I've been putting one in the center. Maybe adding two instead of 1 won't hurt.

Paul, although this response is more form over function / marketing talk. I appreciate the response as I had the SAME view as you up until recently. My reply is lengthy, but I've found all of this interesting, and it extends beyond price and ease of working, so I'm including it. There are many, many more reasons i'm finding to stop using 6/4 R/Q.
1) I have done a lot of research. I've talked to just shy of 100 people, including those family and friends who have bought a table. Only 2 know what R/Q is, and care. One person did not know what R/Q is, but likes the look more. All of the rest either don't have a preference between Flatsawn vs R/Q, or, now this one hurts, prefer the look of flatsawn! My own wife, says she likes flatsawn more. She says she doesn't like the Squiggles in R/Q. I drank a few extra beers the night she told me that.
2) My suppliers sawyer discontinued the 6/4 R/Q. I was buying it as "character grade," although it was was clear as day. I still don't know why it was "character." It maybe had an occasional pin hole knot or small mineral streak. Regardless, it's gone now. My options for 6/4 R/Q are now almost 3$ more per BDF compared to flat sawn. Add in the additional 6/4 volume, and this is not sustainable.
3) As disappointing as it may be for us, most people are so removed from quality furniture, they just want "real wood" now. I can TELL them to pay me extra for the new 6/4 R/Q material price, however I am already at the top of my price point (this I know for sure, based on my area). If I use "real wood," I can compete with a 150$ Ikea table easy, if I keep my prices within reach. Plenty of people still appreciate quality joinery and hardwood I find. However, just because you and I appreciate 6/4 R/Q, doesn't mean they are going to pay me extra for it. Quite the contrary. They need to tell me what they want, And i need to make sure it works. I need to continue to bring hardwood tables, at affordable prices. From my conversations, Flat sawn 4/4 allows me to do this.
4) Ripping a board down the center, and gluing back up in the same orientation helps? In my mind, wood cells expand and contract tangentially and radially across the entire board. If you kept the orientation the same after ripping it down, how would a small glue joint prevent the rest of the cells from doing their thing across the rest of the board?
5) I got 7% MC, and that's what they claimed as well. Although my Moisture meter is kind of crappy, given the congruence of readings, and their reputation as a supplier, I feel OK with it.
6) In regards to the edge glue / lamination idea for a thicker appearance.. Again, completely counter-intuitive. This really blows my mind. Not a single person said they cared. Not a single person. People go as far as saying they like saving the lumber from the center from a sustainability standpoint!? Many people appreciated the sounds of a lighter table. Not a single person viewed this idea as being "fooled." I think we as woodworkers have impressions that the general public does not. It's hard for us to wrap our heads around. Personally, I would feel taken. However, people want it to look nice, be hardwood, and be durable and last. Bottom line. It's hard to view things from our standpoints. That's why I've been so aggressive in my research and surveys. I've really had to adjust my train of thought after all of these conversations with the people who are handing over their hard earned money. I've come to the conclusion that I can either spend my time convincing them to pay extra for what I like, or spend my time making what they want to buy. At this point, I'm now beyond convinced flat sawn with/without a laminated edge is acceptable to people. So, my concerns now are on the opinions of durability/longevity/stability of the cut/width.

Andrew S. I came up with a shop made button that allows over 1" of movement in all directions. If my calculation are right, I should still be around 1/2" of movement across grain.

[Jim Becker]

Pretty much as a rule...I never rip down wide lumber just to reassemble it. And even with wide lumber I carefully try to match grain and color so even those boards blend together to appear as close as possible to being "one board"...

If the material is at an appropriate moisture level, is milled properly and evenly on both sides and is supported to account for wood movement, there should be no issues with it staying flat.

[Robert Engel]

Sounds like the lumber is in good shape.

That said, I've had tops do unexpected things.

I think how you store the top while building the base is important. I will usually leave the top in clamps with cauls across and good air flow on both sides.

Also not forgetting to keep grain direction the same, especially with wood like oak.

I don't know how you can compete with $150 IKEA table. You have more labor than that, no?

[Andrew Goraj]

Good to hear Jim. Looks like most everyone is in favor of leaving them wide, as long as I do my due diligence.

Robert, Completely agree! I started leaving the glue ups in the clamps, resting on two 4x4's which are laid on top of each other, which keeps the panels 7" above the work bench for air flow while I finish the base. Even the R/Q sawn acts like a toddler when left to it's own devices. So, you'd have all the "catherdrals" pointing the same direction correct? And no, I can't sell a table for 150$. What I mean is there seems to be enough people that are willing to buy a hardwood table for my prices and spend the extra money, instead of a fake 150$ table from Ikea. If I increased prices any more though, I would start losing interest for sure.

[Robert Engel]

So, you'd have all the "catherdrals" pointing the same direction correct?

Depends on inside or outside of tree.

I think its up the cathedral for the inside of tree and against cathedral for outside.

Most of the time with white oak I test it with a plane first and mark the correct grain direction. Of course with white oak especially QS, the grain can be every which way.....

[Andrew Goraj]

Depends on inside or outside of tree.

I think its up the cathedral for the inside of tree and against cathedral for outside.

Most of the time with white oak I test it with a plane first and mark the correct grain direction. Of course with white oak especially QS, the grain can be every which way.....

Oh, I see what you're saying. You're talking all "uphill" vs "downhill" grain orientation like I check when running through planer.. Why do I need to make sure the grain direction is all going to same way when gluing up?

[Tony Joyce]

I've always seen on internet replies to finish both sides of table tops. I've often wondered if it was necessary. This post by Bob Flexner confirms my suspicions and experience. I'm sure this will generate a lot of comments, but I find it timely and informative.


https://blogs.popularwoodworking.com...o-this-or-not/

[Jim Becker]

Good construction/joinery best practices will always overtake things like finishing both sides when it comes to wood movement and "warping".

[Tony Joyce]

Good construction/joinery best practices will always overtake things like finishing both sides when it comes to wood movement and "warping".

That along with good flat lumber to begin with. My opinion/experience is if the lumber is dry and flat in the rough it will likely stay flat in the finished project.