Vintage Martin T75 restoration

[Martin Wasner]

I don’t know Martin, well generally what you suggest is 100% true

I mentioned a slab style 80% gloss kitchen we just finished. Our finisher had a nightmare of a time painting it. All kinds of problems. I don’t know if he just doesn’t know the proper product or method for 80% is just tomlazy with his prep, doesn’t keep his booth or equipment clean enough, maybe all of the above.

Anyway even the pieces he got to lay down ok and free of particulate you could see the 320 “as required by the manufacturer sanding scratches from the previous coat. All I,saying is sometimes paint “like stain” doesn’t hide half asssed sloppy work.

Now pre prime paint on site, or 20-40% gloss finishes be it cv or laquer I’d say your 100% right and geneallynthat all that’s going out the door.

Glossy anything is a nightmare, at least when it's glossy wood things can get lost in the grain visually. Finishing isn't my bag, I'm fortunate in that I have a really good finisher close by that I sub everything out to. When something isn't right, he knows to fix it, and to not just fix it, but fix it and tell me about it so I can chew whoever didn't it incorrectly a new one. Including me. I will publicly shame myself in front of the guys in the shop to maybe ensure that I don't do it again and to set the example that I can't get away with it either. lol I have a weird leadership style.

My finisher uses and auto body style booth, where it's a downdraft pulling to the floor, and it's sealed up with a roll up door. Air from the rest of their shop is pulled through filters into the booth, then air from the booth gets pulled through filters and exhausted outside. I always thought that was a better setup than pulling to one end. They keep it pretty clean too. It get's vacuumed out pretty regularly. I don't think much of what they are shooting is going outside, at least not particulate. I like that.


I've got one client that likes everything painted to be hand brushed onsite with oil based. At first I thought he was nuts, but I've come to kinda like the brush strokes. It takes some of the sterility out of paint and gives it some life. There you can get away with murder as far as sanding goes, it's way thicker than lacquer or conversion varnish, and not flat at all . I still sand well, but I've often wondered if we could could just break edges and be done with things like doors coming off the widebelt.

[Patrick Walsh]

I agree a new thread to your title.

I started this though and i dint might mucking up my restoration thread.

Sadly we built plenty of “what I consider garbage, for I consider garbage homes”....

Operative word is “I” and simple things like I will never call a box held togehter with screws, no joinery, glue that will at some point fail, pre finished plywood, conversion varnish that all but makes repairs without throwing the whole thing in the dumpster nothing but junk.

But you know I get it, what I consider quality is not modern cabinetry and it’s not to say modern cabinetry is junk “although I do think it is” but that’s a personal oppinion I don’t much expect many to share.

l

I'm a slave to protocol. Build it to the best of your ability every time. It's the only honest way to do it, because "I f'd up" is ownership, whereas "I just felt like being sloppy" isn't. I do my absolute best to make sure there isn't anything for the client to question. Once they start looking critically, they'll make stuff up to satisfy their need to find something wrong. Not all, but some. We screw half inch backs onto wall cabinets. They get laid out on a standard. Why? Because it looks better sitting on site prior to install. And you know what? I have walked into a house that I've worked on that was in the Parade and heard one of my contractors bragging about his psychopath cabinetmaker. I really hate people who tote the Lean Manufacturing phrase around like a shield, but the truth of it is I'm just lazy, and that's textbook "lean". I'd rather put in half a second of effort than spend 30 seconds explaining something. My standards and protocols are their to make everyone's job easier. The dude selling them, the finishers, the guy installing them, and the client so he can spend his time picking on the other trades. We don't build to a cost, we build to a standard.

I'm like you in the sense that I'm probably over skilled for what I'm doing on the bench, but my time is pulled in 50 directions at all times. selling, drawing, programming, I'm the janitor, accountant, maintenance department, groundskeeper, shop foreman, HR department, and a cabinetmaker. I'd honestly probably be more profitable, and more content if I could find someone to run the front end of things and I could just sit at my bench and get competitive with the other cabinetmakers.


Woodworking is like yoga in the sense that it's you versus you. There's no challenge in cutting up wood, the challenge is creating a discipline, honing that discipline, and maintaining it. One of my guys calls me a robot, because I do everything exactly the same way every time. Once I find something that works, I don't stray from it until it is tested and proven better.


We need another thread. Woodworking for the soul, or zen and the art of woodworking or something. and Kevin, I'm sorry for picking on you. But I'm pretty good at this stuff, and we don't build garbage that goes into garbage houses. I get a little testy when anything other than that is suggested.

[Patrick Walsh]

When I was a painter. Site, interior very high end, we did piles of paint on site cabinetry. It was sometimes shotmwith a oil based and a hvlp pressure pot. Other times clients wanted those brush marks and again it was 99.9% of the time oil based.

I’ve only been making custom cabinetry for 2-3 years now and so far I feel pretty strongly that paint on site results in a far superior product in the end bar none hands down. I know people just love conversion varnish and argue it’s the tuffest product availible yada yada. Personally I consider it junk..

Glossy anything is a nightmare, at least when it's glossy wood things can get lost in the grain visually. Finishing isn't my bag, I'm fortunate in that I have a really good finisher close by that I sub everything out to. When something isn't right, he knows to fix it, and to not just fix it, but fix it and tell me about it so I can chew whoever didn't it incorrectly a new one. Including me. I will publicly shame myself in front of the guys in the shop to maybe ensure that I don't do it again and to set the example that I can't get away with it either. lol I have a weird leadership style.

My finisher uses and auto body style booth, where it's a downdraft pulling to the floor, and it's sealed up with a roll up door. Air from the rest of their shop is pulled through filters into the booth, then air from the booth gets pulled through filters and exhausted outside. I always thought that was a better setup than pulling to one end. They keep it pretty clean too. It get's vacuumed out pretty regularly. I don't think much of what they are shooting is going outside, at least not particulate. I like that.


I've got one client that likes everything painted to be hand brushed onsite with oil based. At first I thought he was nuts, but I've come to kinda like the brush strokes. It takes some of the sterility out of paint and gives it some life. There you can get away with murder as far as sanding goes, it's way thicker than lacquer or conversion varnish, and not flat at all . I still sand well, but I've often wondered if we could could just break edges and be done with things like doors coming off the widebelt.

[Kevin Jenness]

Martin, no criticism of your work was intended. My own experience is that many in the trades approach "paint grade" as if it required less attention to detail. Clearly you don't do it that way. I find that pigmented finishes in cabinetwork tend to be less forgiving of poor prepwork than clears as the wood figure and grain is less of a distraction. A smooth but unfair surface can be disastrous under a uniform layer of paint, thus the scores of hours Patrick is spending on building and fairing the factory prepped surfaces.

An example I saw a while ago was a group of exterior benches built from Accoya, flatsawn radiata pine with an appreciable difference in hardness between the spring and summer wood. The joinery was clean, the design good, but they were oversanded- the cabinetmaker had used a random orbit sander with a medium pad exclusively instead of a belt sander or hand block with an ra for final blending and the surfaces were smooth but rippled. I doubt the client objected, but to my eye it was a real failure.

Martin is as good as it gets in woodworking machinery production, but those guys were making a tool to be used while Patrick is upgrading it to a show car.

[Brian Holcombe]

I think that was typical of the era as well, the factory prep on my Maka was pretty quick work. Not terribly unusual, car engines of that era we’re sprayed after just a very basic removal of casting flash.

This level of prep would probably add a few thousand in cost to a new machine. It’s beautifully done, but one can certainly understand why the factories did quick prep.

[Darcy Warner]

Paint grade is more work imo.

[Jim Becker]

I suspect that "back in the day", the attention was spent on the surfaces that had to be clean and anything that was just machinery structure didn't get made "overly pretty" when it came to castings and the like. Super smooth and flawless finish wasn't a goal, at least to my eyes, and honestly that was fine for function. There's no harm, however, in taking the time and putting forth the effort by anyone who wants to take things to the next level finish-wise. That can generate a lot of satisfaction and I personally like the "smooth and flawless" look, myself.

[Patrick Walsh]

In all honesty guys it’s my oppinion I’m barely if at all one upping the finish with regard to paint and even plating on this machine. I’ll look for some pictures as to to prove my point. What paint was on the machine in many areas was very high gloss, smooth “free of orange peel” and hard as glass.

With all the alligatored paint along with a kinda shattered glass effect it was kinda hard to tell exactly what the finish may have originally been. However like I said where I have found paint in tact and free of fading and scratches it sure looked like the machine had a car quality finish on it.

Then again if you look close and or spend just a little time with the machine you soon realize Martin really went over the top with the fit and finish of this machine with a eye toward quality and fit and finish in all already skimping nowhere. Just use the rip fence scale being brass. Or the various bits and pieces “quite a few” chrome plated or polished aluminum. All the way down to knurled knobs on the cross cut table that actually look to be nickle plated but I think they are something else. Or the bearing the rip fence travels on. The list really goes on and on, they really spared no expense for the time as it seems to me. There are actually bits and pieces small details all over the machine that make clear quality was of the utmost importance and not just with regard to build quality but also fit and finish.

Continuing the topic if I look to the 2002 T73 we have it also has a smooth autobody/car type finish but not quite. Point is the paint is smooth and free of orange peel. Many of the features on my 70’s saw can be found on the 2002 saw but now less overbuilt but still very very nice by comparison to anything else.

So moving on to my year old T54 jointer and the paint is just the same as our brand new SCM planer. It’s orange peel gallor. Do I have a problem with it, “not a bit” in some ways I kinda prefer it.

The point I’m trying to make is I’m really not doing anything to the machine that was not done from the factory. Being I stripped the machine down to bare metal formthe most part, like 99.9% I can attest to the amount of body filler I found under the destroyed factory paint. There are pieces that attaché the sliding table and various other that have these rectangle pieces of metal welded into them. I still can’t figure their purpose, in some cases they are threaded on one side and it seems instead of taping the part these were cut and welded in or something. In some cases they just look like weights but that makes zero sense.

Honestly it is my feeling I’m just putting the machine back together the way I imagine it would have left the factory 30-40 years ago using the clues left in place.

Now do I need to take it to the extent I am taking it for the machine to function as intended, absolutely not. But you know in my mind it makes as little sense to put as much work into it as it would take to tear the machine apart fix anything mechanical and give it a half assed paint job as it does to those whom it make no sense to take it to the degree I am.

You know it’s just like in our work. So many say nothing’s perfect it’s just wood, or it’s gonna be all scratched or chipped dineged dented whatever before the the client even takes possession of the project, or the various trades working around your prized kitchen are gonna trash it before the client has a chance to see your perfect work.

Imop that’s just a terrible mind set perspective and or standard to work to. Sure sometimes good enough is good enough, but honestly I think that mentality is a sickness that degrades ones craftsmanship in a manner that compounds itself over months then years then decades till we have a giant continent sized plastic heap in the middle of the ocean cuz everything has become disposable.

As you can see I’m clearly passionate about not only perfection but also mad as shit that everything in this world has become disposable, that real craftsmanship, integrity and pride in ones work is all but leaving us. That humans are more concerned with where they are going than were they are, more concerned with what is next and the more more more always planning for tomorrow mentality completely missing and at the expense of today. Maybe I’m half nuts but I roll all the above together into one whole. A mindset of sorts and the one I have chosen to subscribe to as others subscribe to “it’s just wood or its good enough”...

I whole heartedly believe anything worth doing is worth doing to the best of ones ability. I hate money what it has done to the human experience with regard to integrity and forcing us out of fear to always be worried for tomorrow instead of enjoying the opportunity we have right here right now today.

I like to build things, anything really. For whatever reason it doesn’t matter if I’m scrubbing a tile floor or building a piece of furniture I’m gonna always go way overboard. That floor will be spotless and my wrists sore, the furniture piece as perfect as my ability will allow even if it means doing something like ten times till I get it perfect and wasting my hard earned money on yet more material.

Anyway that’s a rant but I’m telling you I don’t think I’m doing anything that was not done at the factory to this machine. I may be doing like 15-20 more body filler work and that’s about it but I’m not really even sure that’s that case.

[Patrick Walsh]

A few photos that show the imperfections in the casts and or places pieces were cut and welded into place. It also shows the layers of various fillers and primers.

If you notice you will see green on top, then gray and some white. I suspect the white was a body filler of sorts, the gray was a high build primer much like the polyester I’m using or just a million coats of high build primer. I have actually found that there is gray primer with white filler atop it then more gray primer. The gray primer is a nightmare to get off gummy ad hell and I’m some cases just won’t come off. At one point I even suspected it was lead fill. I no longer think that case but whatever it is it’s thick, gummy and defiantly almost like a polyester as it obscures much imperfections that lay bellow it.

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This gray dust was a never ending consistent layer I may have not been able to get completely out of the imperfections in the casts as it would gum up even with a wire wheel or brush.

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This shows the exterior of the doors is indeed a shiny and smooth finish. The back and or part of the hinge that is not seen not so much. I pretty much paid the same attention to detail with regard to fronts and backs of pieces. Anything facing down or in I have hit with polyester but not body filler and have not bothered getting nuts about. I did prep it like I was gonna get nuts about it as I don’t want my paint to fail ever!

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This is one of the pieces that the sliding table support arm swings on. You can see the weird rectangles welded in and the white filler. You can also see little round circles here and there. Before stripping even with paint peeling none of this could be seen hence it was buried under layers of body filler.

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More sanding revails more hidden stuff,

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And this is what it looked like before I got started with prep. Notice how glass like a s hard that paint chopping looks to be. Also looks very shinny to me.

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[Patrick Walsh]

One more I couldn’t post above,

I have plenty more pictures like this. It’s my oppinion this machine had a very high quality paint job on it from the factory.

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Does it need one again to cut wood accurately and do work. Not a chance...

Also a coat of primer post stripping of the half moon sliding table extrusion shows the original casts and just how much filler was used from the factory hence the amount of filler I have taken the initiative to do.

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[Darcy Warner]

Nothing was welded to the castings, or were the castings welded together.
Those are from the patterns, molds, and the process of casting.

[Jeff Duncan]

My opinion is paint is every bit as demanding as stain work. I find it easier sometimes to fix a stain grade oops, than a paint grade one. Paint grade generally your dealing with a very uniform surface so any little blip shows up. Stain grade you generally have grain and sometimes figure to work with which can hide a bit more.

As for bearings... Martin supplied FAG for my T-21. I would call them first to check on prices. I think they may have changed their systems since I bought mine, but at the time they have a system where they charged you based on what their cost was when they bought the bearings. So for mine which were sitting on their shelf for a few years, they were significantly cheaper than anyone else, and I mean a few hundred $.

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

Have you got numbers and pictures of the bearings? Dave

[Patrick Walsh]

So what are they just release points or something?

Nothing was welded to the castings, or were the castings welded together.
Those are from the patterns, molds, and the process of casting.

[Patrick Walsh]

I kinda agree.

Normally if something happened to the painted finish before it leaves the shop or bad enough in the field i has to come back the problem area is sanded back to bare wood with a da, spot primed the whole box buffed out with 320 and another coat of cv applied.

Stain you know it always ends up with some crap gloppy attempt at a touch up or colored pigment melted into it. Imop a stain grade oops often the only solution is to rebuild as stain grade is often mdf core and really not much sanding that can be done again to fix a oops.



Neit

My opinion is paint is every bit as demanding as stain work. I find it easier sometimes to fix a stain grade oops, than a paint grade one. Paint grade generally your dealing with a very uniform surface so any little blip shows up. Stain grade you generally have grain and sometimes figure to work with which can hide a bit more.

As for bearings... Martin supplied FAG for my T-21. I would call them first to check on prices. I think they may have changed their systems since I bought mine, but at the time they have a system where they charged you based on what their cost was when they bought the bearings. So for mine which were sitting on their shelf for a few years, they were significantly cheaper than anyone else, and I mean a few hundred $.

good luck,
JeffD