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Thread: Vintage Martin T75 restoration

  1. #391
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    I noticed the Iwata..

    I am heading down this path right now.



    https://www.sata.com/index.php?id=sa...L=1#ad-image-0

    Any thoughts on the Sata?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    While you're doing it right, might as well look at an Iwata LPH80. It has always seemed strange to me that woodworkers will have high end tools, and cheap spray guns. The only reason I can think of is that they have never used a good one. You won't see pro car painters using HF guns.

  2. #392
    have tons of spray guns, no interest in HVLP even though I have tops of that. I saw auto shops buy HVLP then switch it out for RP. I prefer that stuff. First one I tried Sata loaned me. Stuck onto a pressure pot and glass came out of that gun, base clear on a 64 corvette. If you want to get likely the best views of spray guns watch the Gunman, He knows his stuff and is not married to anyone. Only neg is you will be spending a lot of time as he has so many you tubes. No one has put more care and effort into it, way better than salesman who repeat facts.

    Id like to say im not focused on it but it was past and just not now so I ignore stuff to move forward on other stuff. Just too busy to restore stuff I just need it to work. Non of us are set up for restoration work. You can spend 20 hours stripping or 1 hour in a pro sandblast booth and do a better job. I fairly like some of the SCM's that are a green then a dark green combined. Likely colour suits design and shape of things as well. I once saw a Wadkin 36" bandsaw that was a purple mov colour, know im spelling that wrong and spell check is not helping but it was almost a crimson kind of colour. It was done to get attention, not my cup of tea. Stuff bugs me or did more, my drafting board made me crazy it was alien green so repainted it in 70 GM paint and Nevemar laminate with an oak edge stained to medium wallnut. It stopped bothering me at that point and made me happy to use it.

    hhhhh.JPG
    Last edited by Warren Lake; 02-09-2019 at 12:07 AM.

  3. #393
    Patrick see your Sata link there that I didnt see. Wanted to edit my post but logged on it isnt there logged off its there then cant edit it. If someone knows a trick to get around that it would be nice.

    Thats the pick of the liter there. If you do look at Gunman You Tubes you will see he likes the 5000 series but not the 4000. Ive got older 2000 series stuff and they are excellent. I put PPS cups on them other than the pressure one and it stepped them up. Old school cups are lousey. The Sata cup system might be better but will cost more, last time talking to 3M I think they had a redesign on them but not to the market yet. If you use the 3M system there is an adapter you can get for the Sata from 3M.

  4. #394
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    SATA is considered the best, but for a small gun, the LPH80 is amazing. If you decide to go with either the PPS or the RPS system, decide to start with, and stick with it. If you get some of both, it's guaranteed that you will put the Sata cup down upside down, without remembering to push the button, and pour paint all over what you set it on.

    I would rather use one of the small guns for a job like spraying this saw. There is almost no surface large enough to take advantage of a full sized gun, but many where the smaller gun would be better.

    There are many pros that prefer the Iwata stuff, but both are good enough to put the best finish on anything. If you were setting up a shop specifically for painting, with a big downdraft booth, Sata can set up up with the whole system. Barring that, I'd pick one of the larger Sata guns, and the Iwata LPH80, but like any other high end stuff, it's personal preference.

    Too bad you guys who could use some machine tools live far away from me. I was left a lifetime accumulation of machine tools by a dear friend that didn't have any children. It's all stuffed into a small garage, but I have it cleared out enough to use the Bridgeport, but not the two lathes, surface grinder, or other stuff. He taught welding, and machine work after he retired from Nasa. The school closed the program when he retired, and gave him all the equipment, or came close to giving it to him. I have plans to build a shop for it as soon as I have the time.
    Last edited by Tom M King; 02-09-2019 at 9:07 AM.

  5. #395
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    Warren I can’t help you with that. Although I will say from time to time the same has happened to me. It’s so annoying I will all but stop,posting and logging in until it resolves. If I remeber it’s been a while it has lasted weeks to months. I think I contacted a moderator at some point and they tried to help. I feel like even that did not help? I do t know maybe it did as it has not happened in quite a while.

    I know of gunman, I found his reasearching guns a couple weeks ago. I agree it seems like he knows his stuff and is not influenced by others. Without that crazy overtime hours i usually work spending the huge money the 5000 cost is kinda hard. It is what it is though as the next gun in line is the Devilbiss Tekna pro and it makes me a few bucks but nothing substantial enough for it to matter.

    Our “was finisher” he got let go for a number of reasons has guns I could use but he does not take care of his equipment and I have no desire to use any of it. Plus non of it is the level equipment we are talking about except a beat to crap Kremlin and well ts best to crap.

    I’m kimda thinking I need a primer gun also but the idea of the Sata 5000 the cup kit and a dedicted primer gun is kinda miserable. I think I’m gonna have to suck it up and buy one though as my polyester will require at least a 1.8...

    The self etch and primer that goes over it are both 1.2-1.4 so the Sata 5000 will cover that. The base and clear I’ll use or polyurithane the Sata 5000mis perfect for spraying.

    My boss has really got to get us back to working full bore again as I’m not adjusted to living without any overtime hours. Makes me think “shit I shoulda gotten my crap together” when I was kid so I coulda had a more lucrative job. What are you gonna do is what it is...

  6. #396
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    The Mini jet..

    Same thing as the 500 rp...

    From what I gather the rp or reduced pressure is what I want and not hvlp..

    https://www.amazon.com/SATA-minijet-.../dp/B00JAXEMT8

    Add the regulator and you back up to the $1000 range

    I have watched videos of the mini gun and full size and I tend to agree the mini gun is perfect. Sadly there is a hvlp version non reduced pressure for barelynused for like $250. I really want the rp version though so I’m gonna skip it. Plus who knows how well the gun was cleaned or cared for. Some things I feel pretty stron about buying new.

    Case in point this saw. If i just dialed up Ed at Samatech sold a organ or two on the black market I could be sitting on the couch this lovely saturday morning with my feet up “thinking about using and how much I love” my $80K T75 prex..

    What a money pit and time suck this thing is lol...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    SATA is considered the best, but for a small gun, the LPH80 is amazing. If you decide to go with either the PPS or the RPS system, decide to start with, and stick with it. If you get some of both, it's guaranteed that you will put the Sata cup down upside down, without remembering to push the button, and pour paint all over what you set it on.

    I would rather use one of the small guns for a job like spraying this saw. There is almost no surface large enough to take advantage of a full sized gun, but many where the smaller gun would be better.
    Last edited by Patrick Walsh; 02-09-2019 at 9:20 AM.

  7. #397
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    I learned a lot about fasteners building engines and racing cars. There is a lot to know when it comes to things like connecting rod bolts or suspension bolts. You’ll almost never see stainless hardware in engine internals and very rarely in
    suspension parts for reasons of ultimate strength. You do start to see them in situations where there is exposure to salt water (boats and boat racing).

    So, in any case they don’t rust but the downside is that they’re hellish to remove if you break one and of course they’re not easy to source for all applications and they’re weaker until you get into the exotic materials.

    I don’t bother with them except in cases where they look nicer and are not strained excessively. So I tend to use them on bare aluminum parts, I think they look out of place when used in cast iron.

    If you do use them, you always, always, always use anti-seize....always!

    I use it on practically everything out of habit, but sometimes you need a thread locker for certain application.

    I could knock my race car down to parts in about a day because I used anti-seize on components with exposure to the elements. I watched enough people swearing under their cars to know better.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #398
    Anti-sieze is both savior and devil at the same time.

    Somebody needs to explain how one small smear of anti sieze can cover EVERYTHING when working with it. It's on the tools, the tool box, there's some in my ear, the dog has some on her back, and I just used the bathroom....

  9. #399
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    Hah! That’s true, every time I use it I feel like I’m wiping it off of the machine and tools for days after.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  10. #400
    Patrick no chance id get the Mini Jet. I started to type you and it was a page in no time and still incomplete. Ill try again and not talk so much but this stuff just leads me in and more and more comes back all at once.

    A full size gun you can turn down. A small gun you can only turn up till its limit. Ive sprayed tiny parts with big guns but could not do larger jobs with the mini gun. I have mini guns and they are neat for certain stuff. I have lots of brands and did fine on Sata. At the time just how it was a guy dropped off a gun here to try. that was rare. Used it once and was blown away so that was it instant customer.

    I love the digital read out in the handle its brilliant. The loaner didnt have that and I sprayed under pressure as lines were so long. It still sprayed excellent.

    I want stuff compact and an air dial gauge attached to the gun is just a bother. Thats shows up when you are doing parts and have to deak in and out of places. Less bulk easier it is to work. I dont even like cups so ran pressure any time I could. Next to that the new cups in the last years of one of the styles are great. Another thing on analogue gauges I took them off the gun and put them in the line about three feet away, then I hold the line in my left hand anyway so the gauge being away kept the spray gun smaller and more compact.

    Have a separate primer gun and cheap is fine. I used a number of dedicated primer guns. Primers got thinner and sprayed better. You talked polyester if sprayable then thats another animal with a big front end 2.2 or 2.5 unless you reduce lots.

    I have a 75.00 porter cable they dont make anymore and it can spray primer and other stuff great. I dont even look at the other primer guns, one was turned into a contact cement gun. The story years back was you have an HVLP for Base Coat and an RP for Clear. I never warmed up to HVLP and most furniture stuff is off the gun. Furniture stuff levels way better than most automotive. There are so many dynamics with all this and whatever the rules are some can be broken a bit or more then better not to some of them will bite you as its the nature of finishing, even when you do it all right Murphy lurks about. Not sure id say Sata is the best like most things there is no best they all have aspects of them that are good. Gunmans fav might be the Tekna, different name over here I havent watched him in a year but you see how well they work as he is doing it live. Sagola did well and others. Some swear by Iwata stuff.

    I think youve talked about a base then a clear on top and sand and polish. Not the way id do it. I think lower sheens would look better than a gloss piece of equipment and there are more dynamics to get through sand and polish thing. Its all another level. I could be wrong maybe a glossy machine would look nice. Some of the materials were nice off the gun and some more difficult. I dont think anything you do will be easy to touch up if you wanted to at some point. gone are the days of lacquers melting back into themselves.

    It is best to follow one system but had one restorer friend who used three or four companies. He would tell them you dont make the best this or that and they had to admit it. With him they finally said yeah you are right. Materials have changed and keep changing its best to have a good supplier and someone who knows their stuff. ive had guys that painted cars for a living and we had good talks and they didnt mind at all. Ive had owners who repeat stuff like parrots and when I say how much have you sprayed it turns out its zero and im talking to a business man. It ended up in arguments. If you have a really good supplier they will be huge help. Its all different levels out there.

  11. #401
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    I have been thinking of anti sieze the silver crap that as Warren suggestest gets everywhere.

    I’m not gonna like playing with that crap around all my newmpaint but it is what it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I learned a lot about fasteners building engines and racing cars. There is a lot to know when it comes to things like connecting rod bolts or suspension bolts. You’ll almost never see stainless hardware in engine internals and very rarely in
    suspension parts for reasons of ultimate strength. You do start to see them in situations where there is exposure to salt water (boats and boat racing).

    So, in any case they don’t rust but the downside is that they’re hellish to remove if you break one and of course they’re not easy to source for all applications and they’re weaker until you get into the exotic materials.

    I don’t bother with them except in cases where they look nicer and are not strained excessively. So I tend to use them on bare aluminum parts, I think they look out of place when used in cast iron.

    If you do use them, you always, always, always use anti-seize....always!

    I use it on practically everything out of habit, but sometimes you need a thread locker for certain application.

    I could knock my race car down to parts in about a day because I used anti-seize on components with exposure to the elements. I watched enough people swearing under their cars to know better.

  12. #402
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    Many good thoughts their all of I have been considering and going back and forth with.

    I have a neglected old 1.4 Devilbiss. Maybe I’ll give it a good clean and see if I can use it for primer. I’m told the etch primer is like water and should be out in so it’s almost see through. I think the technical data sheet calls for a 2.2 or 1.3 I can’t remeber.

    I am working with a Acroma tech with regard to picking and sticking to a system. The tech has me shooting a high build primer over the self etch. Again the technical data sheet requires it be done no more than 16hrs after the etch is sprayed or you have to sand everything to like 180g or risk everything wrinkling.

    After the primer/sealer I plan to put down my big chunky bondo. Then I plan or intent is the polyester to fill all the crap scratches the machines left at the factory and the rough texture of the castings. I at least hope I can sand one or two coats of the polyester and get a nice surface to lay my base and or finish atop. My guess is I’ll still have to rely on some bondo.

    The Acroma tech actually suggested a industrial eurathane for my fishing. Normally I guess it’s a very high sheen often used for marine environments. Boat hulls and the such. There is no base then clear it’s just the eurithane. He suggested a 3.5 sheen I think it is or something like that equivalent to a mat finish. I guess he thinks I should be able to get it to lay down near as good as if I shot a base then clear and wet sanded and polished. I doubt it but my guess it will be good enough for a machine.

    I like the idea of base and clear only to learn something new and for the challenge as I need challenge to keep me interested in anything. The sheer amount of parts on this machine though is becoming daughnting so maybe thei eurithane is my best bet if I ever want to finsh this project.

    Just figuring out the plating at this point feels like a major task. I’m gonna do the plating that my materials will allow for though as I’ll really feel like a cut a major corner if I don’t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Lake View Post
    Patrick no chance id get the Mini Jet. I started to type you and it was a page in no time and still incomplete. Ill try again and not talk so much but this stuff just leads me in and more and more comes back all at once.

    A full size gun you can turn down. A small gun you can only turn up till its limit. Ive sprayed tiny parts with big guns but could not do larger jobs with the mini gun. I have mini guns and they are neat for certain stuff. I have lots of brands and did fine on Sata. At the time just how it was a guy dropped off a gun here to try. that was rare. Used it once and was blown away so that was it instant customer.

    I love the digital read out in the handle its brilliant. The loaner didnt have that and I sprayed under pressure as lines were so long. It still sprayed excellent.

    I want stuff compact and an air dial gauge attached to the gun is just a bother. Thats shows up when you are doing parts and have to deak in and out of places. Less bulk easier it is to work. I dont even like cups so ran pressure any time I could. Next to that the new cups in the last years of one of the styles are great. Another thing on analogue gauges I took them off the gun and put them in the line about three feet away, then I hold the line in my left hand anyway so the gauge being away kept the spray gun smaller and more compact.

    Have a separate primer gun and cheap is fine. I used a number of dedicated primer guns. Primers got thinner and sprayed better. You talked polyester if sprayable then thats another animal with a big front end 2.2 or 2.5 unless you reduce lots.

    I have a 75.00 porter cable they dont make anymore and it can spray primer and other stuff great. I dont even look at the other primer guns, one was turned into a contact cement gun. The story years back was you have an HVLP for Base Coat and an RP for Clear. I never warmed up to HVLP and most furniture stuff is off the gun. Furniture stuff levels way better than most automotive. There are so many dynamics with all this and whatever the rules are some can be broken a bit or more then better not to some of them will bite you as its the nature of finishing, even when you do it all right Murphy lurks about. Not sure id say Sata is the best like most things there is no best they all have aspects of them that are good. Gunmans fav might be the Tekna, different name over here I havent watched him in a year but you see how well they work as he is doing it live. Sagola did well and others. Some swear by Iwata stuff.

    I think youve talked about a base then a clear on top and sand and polish. Not the way id do it. I think lower sheens would look better than a gloss piece of equipment and there are more dynamics to get through sand and polish thing. Its all another level. I could be wrong maybe a glossy machine would look nice. Some of the materials were nice off the gun and some more difficult. I dont think anything you do will be easy to touch up if you wanted to at some point. gone are the days of lacquers melting back into themselves.

    It is best to follow one system but had one restorer friend who used three or four companies. He would tell them you dont make the best this or that and they had to admit it. With him they finally said yeah you are right. Materials have changed and keep changing its best to have a good supplier and someone who knows their stuff. ive had guys that painted cars for a living and we had good talks and they didnt mind at all. Ive had owners who repeat stuff like parrots and when I say how much have you sprayed it turns out its zero and im talking to a business man. It ended up in arguments. If you have a really good supplier they will be huge help. Its all different levels out there.

  13. #403
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    Feb 2015
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    I got In a few more hours this morning before taking the dog for a hike. Gotta make time for the little guy while I can. Iíd love to spend a couple ten hour days weekends on the saw but I just canít do it.

    The reality is Iím point where I think I just need to start painting. Iím amlittle overwhelmed to be honest as there are just so many parts and I almost donít know where to start. The paint Iím using requires a temperature of 65% and above till fully cured. I have access to a spray booth at work but Iím not the only one that uses it. To keep it at 65% means I have to crank t and leave my sorts in the booth after I shoot them. Add to that my parts first get shot with self etch primer then need to be re coated with actual primer sealer within 16hrs and I kinda have to get both primers on in one session. The primer can be shot three hours after the self etch so itís kinda shoot a bunch of parts go have lunch or dinner and come back. Regardless I have to get the parts out of the way I A short amount of time but not so short they donít have time to dry in the booth. The whole thing is kinda a pain in the rear end.

    Anyway I had a few more pieces lagging behind that had been stripped but not soaked in rust remover. Once I got the die grinder it changed the whole process of prepping the pieces. I also got apart a piece on the rip fence that was locked up due to rust that I had all but given up on. Oddly enough I found a repair to the part. Clearly someone broke something at some point. The good news is the repair is fairly clean and strong.

    You can see the gold weld where it was repaired..

    EC8D89C4-7DCA-460F-B327-E031D2BACA49.jpg

    This is the rip fence extension that flips down. I had also not taken this all the way apart nor soaked it in rust remover. I needed snap ring pliers and at the time did not have them.

    FF66EA04-D2CE-4D85-A271-347CA499067E.jpg

    The miter gauge I kinda figured Iíd never restore as Iíd never use it being I plan to get a new Martin miter index. I still may not restor it as just before I almost dropped it into the laquer thinner I noticed the scale with the recessed numbers with paint in them. Iím positive the laquer thinner will pull the paint. The scale is riveted in so removing it and putting it back on is not very straight forward. I suppose I could strip it all then rub black paint back into the numbers.

    7E3CEB7E-1BDE-4664-AF71-FFB4118781F2.jpg

    This is the bearing way I glued up yesterday out of clamps. Oddly and scary as it is the squeeze out is still tacky. The instructions say it should be dry by now. Who knows maybe the squeeze out is not dry as it does not stay in contact with the activator? Either way I had glues two nuts together yesterday as a test. I put them in a couple pair of vise grips today and they broke right apart. Iím not feeling very good about this adhesive.

    I also notice some uneven wear in the groove of the tracks towards the centers of the tracks length. As suggested to me way back when this would indicate someone at some point used to make short cuts over and over again. I just hope this does not present a problem when I go to calibrate the saw. I almost flipped the tracks before gluing them as to get a fresh side but thought I could be opening a whole can of worms and live to regret it. Iím double guessing that decision now.

    172D1C3C-5E26-4FB9-BE73-3B52A1F46458.jpg

  14. #404
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    Here is a shot of pretty much all the parts I have prepped to date. Pretty much all this stuff is 100% ready to be wiped down with pint prep and masked off then primed. I hardly know where to start. Just managing this many pieces in a spray booth when as I said it needs tow coats in three hours or within 16hrs and then can’t just sit there till I’m ready to get back to it is a nightmare.

    If not for this fact I’d just make some rolling racks and hang everything. Now I’m not quite sure how I’m gonna manage all this stuff. I think I. Going to be building some hanging racks regardless. I can hang each piece and spray it right in fron to father exaust wall then move the pieces to hanging drying racks.

    C621EC25-7BA4-4A4C-ACBE-6F2A5CCE4588.jpg

    I got kinda lost this morning as I was as mentioned overwhelmed. I found myself trying to remove the motor from the cabinet. I’m really not sure what comes first regarding getting the rest of the machine apart. Mark Henberry “excuse my hack spelling of your name” mentioned the internals are hanging off the cast table and the tables are blolted to the base. He also mentioned the wheel on the front of the machine that raises/lowers and bevels the blade has to be taken apart and put back together Ina certain order. I think his posts on Canadian Woodworking suggest this wheel was assembled and put tougher with the internals all at once at the factory but without a special tool we can’t do that. Right now I’m still figuring out how the hell to get the motor off.

    The motor is handing off a giant ride that it swivels back and forth on as to adjust the drive belt settings. This giant rod has a cap or cover with a set screw I was able to get off. It is looking to me that to get it off I’m going to need some kind of shaft puller of some sort. Whatever the case it was a serious case of wrestle mania and I gave up a i was rushing knowing I needed to leave and get to walking my dog.

    5ADD0688-BEBD-4793-937C-B86C44BB94DE.jpg

    4D23ED7F-27CE-41AC-8E68-0C2E432B4423.jpg

    I also got the electrical box fully disconnected.mthe saw is really getting down to its bare bones. I’m becoming torn between how much I have gotten done in a fairly short time with regard to the hours I have into the project and how much further I really have to go. Not so much the case as to how much I have done since I brought the machine home but you know I have a life and I also have to make the $$ to afford the cost of doing this. Being a cabinet maker that means I have to work quite a bit. As much as I feel like wow I almost have this thing torn down and prepped for paint I know well enough I have barely even gotten started with regard to seeing the finish line. I’m in not rush but I am of the type that until it’s done I just won’t rest. Every time I think and or want to be working in the machine it eats me alive till I can get something done again. You know kinda how I go about my work when I know my boss needs it down.

    F8A8E555-9899-4411-AD16-68C9267D5F2E.jpg

    With all that said I really am in love with this machine..

    16DC05C8-7D0B-429B-AE87-EF47760B278C.jpg

  15. #405
    I think I warned you that it would be way more work than you ever thought.

    It's a flanged mount motor, loosen belt tension, back out 4 bolts, maybe 5 and slide it out. Pulled several out to fix saw dust pack in the lift screw.

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