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Thread: Vintage Martin T75 restoration

  1. #1291
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    Patrick,

    Using an indicator is usually the first thing I go for but with the sliding table I’ve noticed that using a straight edge can be more illuminating. This is especially true if the main table isn’t perfectly flat and that will cause you a lot of grief if you’re using an indicator.

    Travel a straight edge over the table and eyeball the gap, if it maintains its gap that’s good.

    If the main table has a curve in both directions (middle is up) that gap won’t be the same in the center. I would set it so that the center of the travel has the smallest clearance.

    More important, in my opinion is that the sliding table outrigger doesn’t change in relative height over the course of travel, so that you aren’t cutting a complex curve into long cuts.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  2. #1292
    Not the clearest picture, but the literature I have shows the "hold down" you showed as part "M". It works as a work-piece hold down as well. that Felder fence is definately an upgrade.
    hold down.jpg

  3. #1293
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    Williamstown,ma
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    The outrigger on mine has a bolt under the vertical strut. You raise and lower via it.
    Regarding the carriage adjustment to the main table, the adjustment is via those two angled brackets you mention. You may have to pop chain off, adjust, then reinstall chain. However, I think I did mine without- cannot remember exactly. In any case, those two angles have a threaded rod/bolt of sorts with 2 jamb nuts backed up to each other. I think you have to crack these apart, and then adjust.
    I would be surprised if there was no adjustment for the carriage up and down on that portion of the saw, mine does, but yours is probably 20-25 years newer so...

  4. #1294
    Peter,

    Just spent another 6hrs screwing with the saw. I’m feeling totally strung out. I got it as good as it’s gonna get. Saw is a giant pos

    Nah I’m kidding it s great machine but the cast table has a belly in it left to right right at the blade. Kinda weird as you expect as sag being the trunnion is hung from it. It’s weird it doesn’t show 2 almost the sides of the table. And it only shows on the diagonal one direction.

    If that is not problematic enough the sliding table “aluminum carnage” sags on the leading and trailing ends. Enough that they both must be set dead nuts flush with the leading and trailing edge of the cast table. Then again at the blade you have a rise. Table ends up set .0000 to .0012 back to .0000.

    I’m pretty annoyed but I’m not taking it apart and dragging the two pieces to someone to fix. Well at least not right now I’m not. I’ll get a phase converter make some cuts and see what I get. Honestly most tools I have had the pleasure of using baring my jointer have some kind of issue and you just figure it out. I’d rather it not be that way but it is what it is.

    As for adjustment I have the triangles with set screws. That feature adjust toe of the sliding carriage. The. There are the three bolts on the side that adjusts height. What I can’t figure out how to do is adjust the outside edge of the sliding carafe vrs the inside edge. You know on a modern slider there are the series of temple bolts. On this I think there is some adjustment for tilt with those three bolts but it’s not much and a real pita to be honestly. I almost resorted to shims before I just accepted shimming the cast table a bit more to compensate for the sliding carriage.

    Yes I had to pop the the chain off to adjust toes in and out.


    I’m freaking nackered. Honestly I really hate calibrating machinery. I just want my stuff to work. Largely that’s why I have a banana for new Martin everything.

    I don’t know even new machines have issues. At least the Scmi stuff I have had the pleasure of using. I’m learning a lot though these past few years tearing into and maintaining equipment.

    At eh moment another shaper project sounds like hell lol...



    Quote Originally Posted by peter gagliardi View Post
    The outrigger on mine has a bolt under the vertical strut. You raise and lower via it.
    Regarding the carriage adjustment to the main table, the adjustment is via those two angled brackets you mention. You may have to pop chain off, adjust, then reinstall chain. However, I think I did mine without- cannot remember exactly. In any case, those two angles have a threaded rod/bolt of sorts with 2 jamb nuts backed up to each other. I think you have to crack these apart, and then adjust.
    I would be surprised if there was no adjustment for the carriage up and down on that portion of the saw, mine does, but yours is probably 20-25 years newer so...

  5. #1295
    Brian,

    That’s is pretty much all I do use.

    My only slider experience has been the two machines I used at work the last few years. The Martin i calibrated with feeler gauges and a straight edge. Honestly I did a crap job setting the table to high. It did what it was supposed to do so I never worried much about it.

    I broke out all kinds of tools for this and ultimately threw them all aside except for various length straight edges and feels gauges.

    I only used the oneway to check the deviation of the slider in relationship to the working side of the cast table. You know the leading ad trailing edge number I just mentioned of .0000 to .0012 and back to .0000..

    I also use it to check the toe in and out of the blade. Other than that the things are enough to drive you nuts. I also have a machinist lever from Brian Lamb. Great tool but man everytime I break that thing out I end up want to jump off the roof and or slit my wrists and bleed out in a warm bath. I’m either just not talented enough to set up a machine that well or old Woodworking machines 30-50 years old are just never gonna see the kind of tolerances s tool like that is capable of keeping track of.

    The weapons of war.. like I said and you suggested everything but a straight edge and feeler gauges are a waste of time.

    5C0A2E31-0CB0-4DA7-8FAF-EFAD9BB8A46F.jpg





    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Patrick,

    Using an indicator is usually the first thing I go for but with the sliding table I’ve noticed that using a straight edge can be more illuminating. This is especially true if the main table isn’t perfectly flat and that will cause you a lot of grief if you’re using an indicator.

    Travel a straight edge over the table and eyeball the gap, if it maintains its gap that’s good.

    If the main table has a curve in both directions (middle is up) that gap won’t be the same in the center. I would set it so that the center of the travel has the smallest clearance.

    More important, in my opinion is that the sliding table outrigger doesn’t change in relative height over the course of travel, so that you aren’t cutting a complex curve into long cuts.

  6. #1296
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    Ok, I think a little clarity here might help.
    The measurement .0012" is 12 ten thousandths of an inch. I am willing to bet that when originally built, that tablesaw was checked and set up to only within a few thousandths- read .002- .003".
    If you are within a few thousandths, I think that is as good as it came from the factory.
    I am all for chasing perfection..... to a point.
    And in woodworking, that point is roughly a few thousandths. Any more is mostly an exercise in frustration.
    Take a piece of wood that calipers out at exactly 3.000" wide fresh off the saw, let it sit a few hours, or even a day, and it will not measure that again. It will grow or shrink a few thousanths easily.

    As an aside, push the carriage full forward, and full rear, then try to lift up the extreme end. Try hard- its heavy. If you can pick it up at all- say 1/16" or more, you have play in the slide that could probably be adjusted out.
    Square and rectangular with blade at 90 degrees- zero issues
    The only time it might- and I stress might be an issue is with full length ripped miters, or opening table and fitting with a dado, and doing full length dados.
    I'm betting that machine is probably dialed in much better than almost anything but a new machine

  7. #1297
    Ok I’m kinda special.

    Nobody ever taught me how to read a dial indicator.

    I’m going on one line is .001 and that .015625 is 1/64th.

    The table as said is set at zero. Leading and trailing edge. Otherwise it is generally 3-4 thousandths baring two areas where it sadly jumps to 12 thousandth.

    I agree with you this is wood and I bet the machine will work great.

    My only concern is like yours regarding long meters. I do tons of them in my work and would have doing them on anything else. The shaper works well also but a slider is just so easy. I really hope I don’t have a issue.

    I have already considered the sliding table is aluminum and I bet the nut bag in me could take the aluminum plates off and lap the carriage flat. If that was not good enough could put the aluminum plates on and lap them flat.

    But if it builds stuff fine without additional work I don’t care.

    What is bothering me most is my outrigger arm shudders and makes for sliding the carriage anything but smooth. I have a number of things going on. One being the cast on the underside of the outrigger table is broken and only half there. There is enough to keep in in place but it is also enough to allow the shaft to fall out of plumb. Then the large set screw on the end of the arm was also stripped at some point and replaced with a bolt and two nuts. This piece is also anything but a good fit and aids in the spindle racking.

    Right now I’m talking with Brian Holcombe and we are working up a plan to remake the whole assembly. My intent is to produce one much like a new Martin but with actual bearings. Without the outrigger table the the carriage is smooth as butter and as is not level will roll down hill on its own with the slightest nudge of the finger.

    I just went and gave the table a lift on either end hard. Zero slop, like zero solid as a rock..


    w
    Quote Originally Posted by peter gagliardi View Post
    Ok, I think a little clarity here might help.
    The measurement .0012" is 12 ten thousandths of an inch. I am willing to bet that when originally built, that tablesaw was checked and set up to only within a few thousandths- read .002- .003".
    If you are within a few thousandths, I think that is as good as it came from the factory.
    I am all for chasing perfection..... to a point.
    And in woodworking, that point is roughly a few thousandths. Any more is mostly an exercise in frustration.
    Take a piece of wood that calipers out at exactly 3.000" wide fresh off the saw, let it sit a few hours, or even a day, and it will not measure that again. It will grow or shrink a few thousanths easily.

    As an aside, push the carriage full forward, and full rear, then try to lift up the extreme end. Try hard- its heavy. If you can pick it up at all- say 1/16" or more, you have play in the slide that could probably be adjusted out.
    Square and rectangular with blade at 90 degrees- zero issues
    The only time it might- and I stress might be an issue is with full length ripped miters, or opening table and fitting with a dado, and doing full length dados.
    I'm betting that machine is probably dialed in much better than almost anything but a new machine

  8. #1298

  9. #1299
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    The plan, so far is to build an aluminum 'plug' for the end of the steel outrigger extension. That plug would be machined to have two bronze bearings and would carry a shaft.

    To address the broken top and also make for the ability to adjust the height of the shaft in a more proper manner I plan to have the shaft cut down a size (say from 1.25" to 1.125") that would extend about 1.5", the upper 1" would be further cut down (to 1" diameter) the remaining 1/2" would be threaded.

    The threaded portion will carry a threaded shaft collar which would allow some range of adjustment (1/4"~). The unthreaded top half would be seated in a housing. That housing would bolt to the underside of the sliding table replacing the broken section.

    That's my plan so far, it's still subject to change at the moment.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  10. #1300
    Hi Patrick, you have got me looking at old Martins now...

    Anyway fwiw I get the need to get the slider as close as possible but in my mind and practice (warning, you may already know this - i haven't read everything here and its probably already been mentioned ) the most important items are:

    1. Get the cast iron as close to perfect first as it is your reference for everything else
    2. Get the slider coplaner with the cast
    3. Set the slider height 0.005 - 0.008 above the cast - GASP! I know but I have found anything less just causes processing issues, 0.003 - 0.005 would be my min but the cast flat and the slider coplaner and it goes without saying the blade 90deg on cast and slide is the most important first step.
    4. Then of course toe out, outrigger coplaner and tracking, and all the other tidbit tweaks

    I have a feeling you might go through the process several times because the saw has been completely apart and you will find other issues that need top be tweaked and force you to start the calibration process over... but don't get discouraged, you've got one sweet saw there...

    Mark



    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Walsh View Post
    Ok I’m kinda special.

    Nobody ever taught me how to read a dial indicator.

    I’m going on one line is .001 and that .015625 is 1/64th.

    The table as said is set at zero. Leading and trailing edge. Otherwise it is generally 3-4 thousandths baring two areas where it sadly jumps to 12 thousandth.

    I agree with you this is wood and I bet the machine will work great.

    My only concern is like yours regarding long meters. I do tons of them in my work and would have doing them on anything else. The shaper works well also but a slider is just so easy. I really hope I don’t have a issue.

    I have already considered the sliding table is aluminum and I bet the nut bag in me could take the aluminum plates off and lap the carriage flat. If that was not good enough could put the aluminum plates on and lap them flat.

    But if it builds stuff fine without additional work I don’t care.

    What is bothering me most is my outrigger arm shudders and makes for sliding the carriage anything but smooth. I have a number of things going on. One being the cast on the underside of the outrigger table is broken and only half there. There is enough to keep in in place but it is also enough to allow the shaft to fall out of plumb. Then the large set screw on the end of the arm was also stripped at some point and replaced with a bolt and two nuts. This piece is also anything but a good fit and aids in the spindle racking.

    Right now I’m talking with Brian Holcombe and we are working up a plan to remake the whole assembly. My intent is to produce one much like a new Martin but with actual bearings. Without the outrigger table the the carriage is smooth as butter and as is not level will roll down hill on its own with the slightest nudge of the finger.

    I just went and gave the table a lift on either end hard. Zero slop, like zero solid as a rock..


    w

  11. #1301
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    Patrick, so you are saying the slider rangers from .000-.003 except a spot where it jumps to .012 ( not .0012 ) ? Does the jump last for a couple of inches or longer? Does the outrigger support have a hitch when the dial jumps? I've had to dial that out. Is the jump spot before or after the blade? Dave

  12. #1302
    Patrick, here's how I eliminated the "chattering" you're getting. I know it's a silly solution, but was intended to be diagnostic, until I came up with a more permanent and elaborate solution. That was two years ago! The support rod must be stabilized and the shim does the trick. Point is, be sure stabilizing the support rod is incorporated into your solution. there's a rotational component as well. I stuck a delrin washer between the top of the rod and the underside of the outrigger table to prevent wear. I know, another quick & dirty, but effective solution. Look at SCMI/MiniMax saws for inspiration.
    shim.jpg

  13. #1303
    Pretty much the range is .000 to .003. Well it was I screwed with it again.

    The jump is before the blade.

    Yes the jump lasts for a couple inches or more. But spikes bad to like .015-119 for a blip that you almost can’t even see happen. But it happens. You know I gotta go back now and lol against this after my adjusting today.





    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    Patrick, so you are saying the slider rangers from .000-.003 except a spot where it jumps to .012 ( not .0012 ) ? Does the jump last for a couple of inches or longer? Does the outrigger support have a hitch when the dial jumps? I've had to dial that out. Is the jump spot before or after the blade? Dave

  14. #1304
    Joe,

    Thanks, I jammed a couple shingles in there. For a minute I thought it was problem solved. It’s much better but not a total solution. After a bit of screwing around the saw recreated the shudder even with the shims.

    Its clear that is a racking problem the result of tolerances not being tight enough.

    Brian and I will address the issue once and for all. I got a good look at he design of the newer machine at work today and also a SCM in the shop next door. I’m confident we should be able to completely resolve the issue in a fairly easy manner without going overboard.

    However if overboard is needed we will do that. I don’t think so though based on the new saw along side your shim explanation as it really did help.

    Quote Originally Posted by joe milana View Post
    Patrick, here's how I eliminated the "chattering" you're getting. I know it's a silly solution, but was intended to be diagnostic, until I came up with a more permanent and elaborate solution. That was two years ago! The support rod must be stabilized and the shim does the trick. Point is, be sure stabilizing the support rod is incorporated into your solution. there's a rotational component as well. I stuck a delrin washer between the top of the rod and the underside of the outrigger table to prevent wear. I know, another quick & dirty, but effective solution. Look at SCMI/MiniMax saws for inspiration.
    shim.jpg

  15. #1305
    Not much today.

    The whole shimming of the saw topic has had my brain hurting. Not being able to make sense of why the sliding carriage would “A” not have adjustment to address wilt and “B” why it would be so far out from the cast table forcing me to shim the cast table. The whole thing has me disappointed as this is not a topic I anticipated having to deal with. The 2002 T73 at work is like a laser. The table is so huge and so flat it’s totally impressive.

    So you know Brian Holcombe had pointed out to me or rather asked if I planned to level the machine. The answer was yes. His feeling differed form my feeling in his belief being that the machine being out of level could be having a affect on my calibrating it.

    I would tend to agree on a lighter duty machine but this machine is built like tank. I just can’t see how it not being lever could rack the base. But you know what do I know. To date I have just grown a number of machines on the ground totally not level and been able to just get right to work or calibrate them that way as the cast tables were perfect and unaffected by the machine not being level.

    So I wet to the Internet to order leveling feet. Like anything I do I can’t do it half way. I found feet by a company called Sunex. Originally and per Brian’s suggestion I was looking at adjustable wedge style feet. After seeing they cost $139 a piece and I need six of them I decided I’d have to settle for stud style feet. Surprise the Sunex stud style feet rated for my machines weight were $149 a piece. Frustrated and going broke at this point over this saw and with no plan to even bring power to it as a result of still spending hand over fist on it I headed to the shop and leveled it with some shims.

    26966CF2-4B3F-4E7E-A835-DF42FE6B90BF.jpg

    3A93AF7D-734F-4C8B-BF43-666358E8A70E.jpg

    Don’t worry I have no plans to leave the machine this way. That mess under was never meant to be kept. Actually it came this way and I opted to keep it this way while doing the work. But for now leveling it would at least give me a chance to test brains theory.

    So the result. Well things are generally showing the same all bit it much less drastic. For whatever reason the sliding carriage tilts up at the cast iron table. As a result it’s as if the two tables form a peak at the blade.

    Leveling the machine did help what without adjustments or shimming of the cast table a disaster. It did however not make the problem go away. At this point the machine has no shims under the cast table. One of the sliding carriage towers does have a .0016 shim under the bottom side. I tied matching it on the other tower thinking it would toe affect both sides of the carriage “leading trailing side” or front to back but it did not. Actually it did exactly the opposite. It’s as if shimming just the one side as I did resolved a certain amount of twist in the carriage.

    So here are the numbers and the facts. If I hang a straight edge off the carriage and over the cast say 8-12” at most my deviation from over the 8-12” with the cast table diving down from the sliding table is no ore than .003-.004. The setting off the table does rise and fall a bit based on the hump in the middle of the cast table and what seems to be a belly in the sliding carriage. But you know how I have it set right now is totally acceptable to working with wood. Honestly somebody that had no idea of adjusting sliders would walk up to the saw put to work never being the wiser.

    My concern shimming the cast table was I would then have to shim the arbor to compensate for shimming the cast. I really did not want to get into that unless given no other option. Fully not expecting these type issue with this machine I was and am adamant to get this right without twisting tugging and manipulating the machine to work properly. If that is going to be the cast I just assume two things. One just buy a brand new machine “not happening with the time and money I have into this not to mention my attachment to it at this point” or pull the cast table and sliding carriage off and get them to someone who can make them new saw perfect.

    So for me the adjustments stay the way they are till I can cut some wood with it and see what I get. I gotta continue to take this one step at a time as I can’t do it all at once. Hand wheel is in the works and gonna probably be a solid $1500 itself done, maybe more probably not less. Brian and I will tend to the outrigger table, I have no idea of a cost at this point but it’s got to be done. Then some air fittings and ingenuity for plumbing the air clamps. Then I have a idea to build a base that is not a eyesore but can be shimmed like a normal person with shakes. If not I’ll buy the dam feet. Then I can think about electricity. At this point I bet it will be spring before I get to make some dust with it.

    8EE96434-C5BD-4157-AC42-BA65D884F18F.jpg
    Last edited by Patrick Walsh; 12-10-2019 at 10:00 PM.

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