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Thread: Need some advice for staircase remodeling

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    The "walk line" (used to be called the "line of going") looks a bit strange to me on those winders. I would probably tear the whole thing out, and redo. When looking up what a "walk line" is, also look up Dancing Stairs. There might be something on dancing stairs now, but I now it was gone into in great detail in old books. I built one set of dancing stairs in a stairwell that was designed too small for a regular staircase, and they surprised everyone, including me, with how naturally comfortable they walked.

    I did a google search, but had trouble finding any useful information on "dancing stairs", but did find this. The pivot point of the radius of each tread nose is a different point, but there is a formula for it. I think the design I used was in a 19th Century book, or reprint of. That was in 1980, so I don't remember all the details. They looked more like the right hand drawing here:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=SY...rawing&f=false

    I agree with you Tom. When walking pass the winders, the optimal for me is about 1.5ft from the inside wall. My wife and kids prefer to stay on the wider side and take 2 steps on each winder.

    I would much prefer a flat rectangular landing, but then we need more steps on each side of it and the length of the staircase doesn't permit. Removing it would be lots of work and headache. We got used to it anyway.

  2. #32
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    Not sure you saw my edit on post #21: Have you thought of just using your laminate right over your existing treads? No issue matching the floor then. That is what we did. Try a tread or two to see how it goes, nothing to loose, you probably have scraps left from your floor project. Coming up with the nose could be an issue depending on what trim they offer for your floor.
    NOW you tell me...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Friedrichs View Post
    Asking a stair question and getting a reply from Mr. Wolf is akin to getting tips from Tiger Woods on your golf swing... If he says it's a difficult project, well...

    I agree, Tom King knows what he's talking about.

    I'm a carpenter, and I like building stairs for the challenge. If you can plan it out before you start, most woodworkers have the skills it takes. Several things I'd add, if a client asked me to the stairs to the barnwood vinyl floor, I'd suggest that it's not possible to match real wood to "fantasy" wood through the use of finishes on the treads, as it'll wear off quickly and look terrible. I'd suggest a complimentary wood that can be oiled back to new color for easy touch ups. I always start with oak as a suggestion because it's cheap and tough, and go from there. Premade treads are easy to cut down, and readily available in several species. I'd avoid trim at the tread/riser junction, it looks like an amatuer move. Careful with cove under the tread, depending on bullnose dimensions, it's common to end up not having room for a cove if you are diligently following code. It's also a bit easier to catch a toe with that cove, in my opinion, but it can look nice in some instances. Have fun!

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Anderson View Post
    Not sure you saw my edit on post #21: Have you thought of just using your laminate right over your existing treads? No issue matching the floor then. That is what we did. Try a tread or two to see how it goes, nothing to loose, you probably have scraps left from your floor project. Coming up with the nose could be an issue depending on what trim they offer for your floor.
    Thanks Ole. Using the flooring would be my first choice. Perfect match for the look and easy to purchase the parts locally.

    But the problem is the curved treads because they only sell straight landing tread nose. That's why I now have to venture down the path of making my own treads. Learning a lot of new things though and sounds like a fun and challenging project to do.

  5. #35
    Does anybody have good/bad experience to share about tiling risers with small mosaic tiles?

    I have done several tiles projects so this would be an easy one. But more importantly, my wife is pushing for something like this and I need to come up some good reasons if I go another way :-)

    https://i.pinimg.com/564x/89/a7/2b/8...334e9e390d.jpg

  6. #36
    We've been using the word "cove" ,but the stair guys usually say "scotia" which is not as deep . And it's taller than the depth. And the tread nosings don't go to tangent. Most of the nosings and scotias together are just 1 and 1/8.

  7. #37
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    The tile would cut the number of wooden pieces, that have to be fitted perfectly on each end, in half. If it matches the rest of the house, and the Wife likes it, there's your answer.

    I like housed stringers, but sometimes, when redoing old staircases, they're more trouble than they're worth. With a homemade jig, I mark the new treads with a sharp no. 4 pencil, and cut with a 10 pt. handsaw. The goal is to fit off the saw, so careful marking, followed by careful sawing is required. You can't cut any one piece a hair long, and force it in. It will most likely open up something below it. I don't have a picture of any treads I've done like this, but do have a picture stored here of some siding fitted off the saw, like I'm talking about.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #38
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    From your pictures there are a few things of concern. I would encourage you to go back and give more consideration to Richard's remarks. Removing the extisting would be preferred but perhaps not realistic given that you are living in the house during this.

    Something you may wish to consider is the arrangement of the winders. Unfortunately as Richard has pointed out this stair was built by a framer and not a stair company which has led to some design choices which could have been handled better. Attached are a couple of pictures showing a more elegant way to handle this arrangement. Longepe's (the one in french) design is nicer but considerably more involved and not an option here, but was likely the half forgotten impulse of the person who designed it. Mannes shows one that is simpler and more common. You are very restricted given what you have but there is some room for minor change. Your tread depth at walk-line cannot be altered much but you can change tread depth at outside stringer which can to some degree do away with the jarring stringer transitions and introduce some flow to the outside stringer.

    One method of fitting curved stringers is similar in concept to the Collin's jig for straight treads. Take appropriate squares of 1/4" MDF and scribe to fit both and inside and outside stringer. Take another piece of MDF large enough to overlap both scribed pieces and draw index marks. Remove all three pieces and reassemble on tread to be fitted and draw cut lines
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #39
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    Hi,

    I can not offer any advice as far as the details of the work you wish to accomplish.

    But I do know that there is a difference between the perfect job that we often wish to accomplish, and what is good enough.

    Granted, ripping the whole works out and replacing it with the perfection of the craftsman would be the ideal.

    But I would guess you can do it good enough that 99% of those who visit your home will never see the difference, without ripping everything out and starting over.

    I think you need to find a balance between perfection and good enough that suits you personally.

    Keeping in mind all the good advice given above in this thread...

    Bill
    Too much to do...Not enough time...life is too short!

  10. #40
    If the rise per step is consistent now, it will not be if you add treads on top of the existing treads. The bottom step will increase by the thickness of the tread you add. If it is 1 inch think, your first step will be 1 inch taller than it is now. The top step will be one inch less. By code, your rise per step is supposed to be within 3/8 inch for all the steps including the top and bottom. So you won't meet code. It's your house, you can decide.

    I did one staircase somewhat like you are thinking. I put 3/8 oak flooring over the softwood treads. I removed the nosing piece so it was flush with the riser and then made 1 inch think nosing pieces out of oak. I filled and painted the existing plywood risers. I had to use a cove moulding to hide the joint of the nosing piece to the riser. The nosing piece was secured to the softwood tread with long finish nails and construction adhesive. I did every other tread so we could still use the stairs. We liked the look and the house sold easily so buyers did too. If you want to overlay your existing treads, I would do something like this before I did 1 inch treads on top of the existing treads. It keeps your rise per stop at least very close to in code.

    More recently, I tore out a staircase and rebuilt it. The riser per step varied by 2 inches. There were two giant rise steps, over 10 inches and about 11 inches. Then some winder stairs then a straight run with 8 inch rise. 7 3/4 is the max you can have per code so there was not one compliant step in the staircase. Whoever built it (I think it was the previous homeowner) made each tread 13 inches wide by gluing and nailing flooring to the back of each tread. It was all stained up and finished decently so it wasn't obvious until I tore it out. That huge run let me put in enough treads without the winders to get the rise down to about 7 1/8 (for all the steps). I had to cut my own new stringers - I used 3 - and get all new treads. I built a coat closet under them too. It was a pretty big job. I build furniture when I'm not working on the house so I had the tools and related experience. I bought oak treads at the lumber yard for about $50 each. My risers are 3/4 softwood and have a dado for the back of the tread below them. They are glued and nailed into the stringers. The treads are glued to the stringers and I used a few trim head screws if I needed to pull the tread into the stringer. The screw holes are filled with wax crayon after the treads were finished.

    Even more recently I refinished an existing staircase in another part of my current house. The rise per step met code. It had extra shoe molding on each step to hide the gap. The treads were stained oak and the skirt board and risers were clear finish (and old) pine. The gaps were not always bad but some where. Thus the moulding. But with painted risers and skirt boards, you can hide a gap up to one eighth or a little more with caulk. I use Duo sil ( a urathane caulk). It shrinks less, sticks better and takes paint fine. So I sanded the treads, refinished them with poly, then painted the skirts and risers. A lot less work.

    My first choice for your stairs would be to remove all the existing treads, possibly every other step so you can continue to use it. But if you don't want to do that, covering with thin flooring is better than overlaying normal 1 inch treads (to keep the rise more even).

  11. #41
    Thanks Keith. The round stairs look really nice. I wish it was framed as such. I also like the second one on the 3rd image. But I guess for track homes, the builders just go for functional and easy to build.

    But rebuilding the winders would make this a much bigger project and not suitable for a novice. Given the walk line, while not optimal, is just a nuisance at this point. It's too much extra work and cost for little benefit.

    Although I still don't understand Richard's point about the framer vs stairman. Given I don't mind the current shape, is there a problem to lay new treads and flooring on top of the existing structure?

  12. #42
    Thanks for sharing your experience Jim. My first preference would be using flooring to match the look on the second floor. The reason why I can't use it is because of the 4 bottom treads that are curved. My flooring only offer a straight stair nose. That is why I have to make custom shaped tread out of S4S treads.

    But I am lucky with the top and bottom riser. The bottom riser is currently shorter, thus w/ the new tread on top, it still matches the other risers. The top riser is just 1/4" shorter than others.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    The tile would cut the number of wooden pieces, that have to be fitted perfectly on each end, in half. If it matches the rest of the house, and the Wife likes it, there's your answer.

    I like housed stringers, but sometimes, when redoing old staircases, they're more trouble than they're worth. With a homemade jig, I mark the new treads with a sharp no. 4 pencil, and cut with a 10 pt. handsaw. The goal is to fit off the saw, so careful marking, followed by careful sawing is required. You can't cut any one piece a hair long, and force it in. It will most likely open up something below it. I don't have a picture of any treads I've done like this, but do have a picture stored here of some siding fitted off the saw, like I'm talking about.
    At first, I didn't think it would be hard to fit risers and treads. It seemed we just have to measure and cut accurately and just glue them to the existing structure. But it seems that is not good enough.

    Initially, although we like the look, I was concerned tiles might fall out if we hit the risers and grout lines might crack. It also a takes longer to install given we need to let the thinset and grout dry. But it avoids all the fitting mentioned in this thread, so it might be simpler after all. Now we are down to just cutting the treads precisely.

  14. #44
    Is this the right way to put tiles on the risers? I would put the tiles behind the tread. It might not touch the old tread depending on the size of the mosaic. Put caulking at the top/bottom/left/right of the tiles.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #45
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    Ok, let me start over with this. First to clarify, if a stairman built the staircase, it is built as a separate entity and installed as a finished unit. The stringers are mortised or routed out to except the treads and risers which are held in with wedges, glue and screws. The stairs should be square, straight and level. They are solid with glue blocks used throughout. If a framer builds them, they cut rough stringers under the stairs and build everything on top of them. The stringers that show on the sides are only cosmetic and probably don't add any structure to the stairs. The riser are probably not screwed into the back of the treads. The framer knows that carpet will cover a lot of misfits and hings may not be square or fit well.

    So that is that and if you think your stairs are fine, great, use them because that approach will make your project more doable for you. Cut the nosing off like you said, fit you treads carefully. You can cover you winders with solid wood or flooring, both will look fine if you match the flooring to the treads and sand the flooring before finishing. Tiling the risers will look nice, I think they have a grout that is more flexible than standard, that would help. I think you really need to think about the first step/last step situation and how that will play out.

    I didn't come here to try and discourage you for doing this project, only to make you aware of some of the things you may face. Take your time, try to plan ahead.
    Richard

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