another interior door question

[Warren Lake]

actually they did know, they have lots of old churches in Munich and areas around, they did lots of restoration work, they knew the history of the work they replaced. Guy who taught him head of the Guild there at that time. In Canada he put a guarantee on work he designed which freaked out the owners of one companies he ran. Started as a second class cabinet maker and didnt take long to be up running the jobs. Rich people arent stupid and figure out who can make the most money for them. I remember him saying he had to build doors designed by an Engineer with rods and gizmos and he told them it will fail and he would design as he was taught, They ran jobs some in the million range in the late 50's and up.

[John TenEyck]

Interesting Warren. However, I don't think they were doing stack and reglue with anything related to doors 300 years ago. All of the old doors I've looked at in Germany used solid stock with big through tenons, or nailed crossed construction. I have no doubt the guy you remember knew his stuff, but I don't believe he was copying anything done 300 years ago.

John

[Warren Lake]

he did cores, the guy that taught him who was fanatical and did this his lifetime from when he was taught did cores, the guy that taught him who gave him his shop and didnt give it to his own kids which was unheard of in Germany taught him the cores. So there is three guys doing it that way over 150 years easily. Most of these guys started at 14 or so and did a lifetime then had shops on their properties and kept working in whatever level they wanted.

They did cores because they were stable, they did them because they could resaw and bookmatch, they did them because sometimes doors were very large and they could make any thickness door correct for the job. Usually the outside veneer was 3/8" or more. When he made his kitchen doors or a face frame it was mortise and tennon, on a kitchen door for example it was mitred profile and the tennon was 1 1/2" long. Never a slip but a mortise and tennon and thats 1 1/2" on a cabinet door. Non of his mouldings were put on with a nailer, they did splines and clamped. When he started the shop was just coming off belts. Machinery manufacturers gave the guy that taught him new machines to try out and he wrote reviews on some of them in trade magazines. Each of them built as they were taught.

[Greg Brophey]

Nice work John. Alot of time went into those arch top French doors, jambs and trim you made. I think I will try my jig out on the first door I build as I am about ready to put these together. So I will give loose tenons a try and see how it goes. I would assume the same wood species should be made for the tenon material.

A few more questions on the build of the panels, if I may. I am going to put together the door framework of all doors first. Since these are 4 paneled doors, my strategy for one man operation is to leave out all panels and hang doors to existing jambs, which I set and are all new. I will have plenty of time between glue setups for parts to hang and build to keep working. For panel installation, I was going to use 1 1/2" thick panels (2 ply) profiled on edges, but not sure what design to use. I may just make them square and cut in a shadow line about 3/16" from ends (Shaker like) and space it equally, instead of the slanted or ogee style. I was going to apply a panel molding on the edges of the panel areas to one side, set in the panels, and apply panel molding to the other side, keeping the molding in a slight amount from edges. I also would put in some panel spacers all around, realizing I can only attach this solidly at the center of the panel only.

I just can't put the doors completely together on the table and try to hang them and fit them. Way too heavy for one guy. I am sure others will have some suggestions on putting in these panels other ways, realizing I can only do it after all the parts are glued together, and would appreciate any input here from the members reading this. Any secure attachment methods via "my way" on the panels would also be appreciated.

Another question would center on French door hardware to use. Any suggestions on applying a wood strip to one door or not? I am not sure if I like the idea of applying a strip on one of the door edges and not sure if it is even needed, depending on what type of hardware I use for these. I just have one 4 ft French door set to make. I had some old wavy glass I was going to put in, but it is not tempered. I also have a Freud French door making router bit set I bought some years ago and was planning on using this for all the mullions, since I would like to have each glass pane separate, but will look at some suggestions already made by mreza.

Does anyone want to comment on size of tenons for 1 3/4" paneled doors I am building? I may go 5/8" thick. For the top rail to style it is 4 3/4". What is recommended width? For middle or lock rail it is 8" wide. How wide for tenon, and one or two separate pieces? For bottom rail to style it is 10" wide. How many here and one, two, or three separate pieces? I can look at some already made door companies but still appreciate what others have done and opinions.

I will comment that I have already made quite a few door stiles, laminated and glued, and they are very straight and have stayed straight. I was worried about bowing, but I don't think this is going to be an issue with this quarter sawn stock especially. It really makes a big difference as I very rarely have used quarter sawn stock for anything due to expense.

[John TenEyck]

Warren, I'm sure all those guys knew there stuff. I'm also sure no one was making glued, laminated exterior doors 300 years ago.

John

[David Kumm]

My loose tenons are usually 2 1/2" wide. Set 1" from the edges to make layout easy and repeatable with a stick made for that purpose. Two on mid and bottom rail. For what it is worth, I've built Walnut, Mahogany, Oak, Maple, Doug Fir, and Hickory with either solid or two lamination stiles and not had a problem with splitting or warping. It is critical that the wood is dry, 8-10%. I also did the unthinkable and laminated oak to walnut. I've been waiting for them to explode for 20 years now and they still hold together. I don't recommend it but it tells me that solid wood interior doors can last even though core with decent veneer would be preferable. Dave

[John TenEyck]

Sorry, I've been out of touch for a couple of days. Like Dave K., I locate my loose tenons 1" in from both the edges of the rails. So for a 5" rail I would use a 3" wide tenon. For an 8" rail, two tenons 2.5" wide each. For your 10 inch lower rail, I would use two 3" tenons with a 2" space in the center. I use 5/8" tenons on 1-3/4" doors because I have a slot mortiser but if I were using a router I'd use 1/2". They will be more than strong enough.

Before I forget, you MUST use tempered or laminated glass for any passage door, even in your own home.

Your plan for setting the panels will work just panels. That's pretty much how I do it. I make moldings to fit around the panel openings. They are glued in on one side. After the doors are hung I set in the panels and then add the molding on the other side, pin nailing or screwing them in place.

You can use a cope/stick router set if you have one, but it's not necessary. I made those arched French doors using jack miters to join fit the rails to the molded stiles.





I used a method shown by Steve Latta in FWW a few years ago to create the grid work for the divided lites in those doors. Basically, you create a grid using half lapped joinery, the ends of which are captured in shallow mortises in the frame.



Then you glue your molded muntins to that grid work. If you use a router bit that is a perfect mirror image about it's center you can use it to cut the copes on the ends of the muntins, then flip the muntins over and mold the sticking profile on their show faces.



You glue the muntins to the gridwork.





After the door is finished you can set the glass panes in place. I used a tiny dab of silicone at the top and bottom between the glass and grid to keep the panes from rattling, and pin nailed the moldings in place.



There are different ways to deal with securing the non-handled door. I used a sliding door bolt at the head jamb with this one.



Similarly, there are different ways to deal with the gap between the two doors. I used a simple surface mounted astragal, screwed to the non handled door, shown above, and here.



There is a lot to sort through with French doors, but none of it is all that hard. The hardest part I found was the tight tolerances you have to work to. Even though doors are big and heavy there isn't much room for error. Measure carefully, use story sticks, and templates where it's critical. Good luck.

John

[Joe Calhoon]

he did cores, the guy that taught him who was fanatical and did this his lifetime from when he was taught did cores, the guy that taught him who gave him his shop and didnt give it to his own kids which was unheard of in Germany taught him the cores. So there is three guys doing it that way over 150 years easily. Most of these guys started at 14 or so and did a lifetime then had shops on their properties and kept working in whatever level they wanted.

They did cores because they were stable, they did them because they could resaw and bookmatch, they did them because sometimes doors were very large and they could make any thickness door correct for the job. Usually the outside veneer was 3/8" or more. When he made his kitchen doors or a face frame it was mortise and tennon, on a kitchen door for example it was mitred profile and the tennon was 1 1/2" long. Never a slip but a mortise and tennon and thats 1 1/2" on a cabinet door. Non of his mouldings were put on with a nailer, they did splines and clamped. When he started the shop was just coming off belts. Machinery manufacturers gave the guy that taught him new machines to try out and he wrote reviews on some of them in trade magazines. Each of them built as they were taught.

Warren,
I am sure your Meister mentor knew what he was doing. After the war they were rebuilding a lot of historic buildings and I bet a lot of work was laminated.
here are a few pages from a German book on making interior doors that dates to 1949 written by a man who was trained in the 1920s.

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[Joe Calhoon]

From another book here is a drawing of the reconstruction of a exterior Italian door dating from the early 1800s. A lot of the old doors in Europe were made of layers of frame and panel with battens. At that time probably not laminated.

2B18E249-EB05-46E7-85F6-AE95F0B2DAD3.jpg

[Greg Brophey]

Thanks John for the very thorough and excellent summary of what you did, as it is very helpful to me to confirm my needs. Excellent quality custom built doors. One question is how long are your loose tenons? If I had to guess, they look to be about 5" total.

Did you happen to price these French doors according to the same way that you made them? Just curious in what the price of pre-built would have been. I priced mine, and could find no one who made solid quarter sawn oak doors nearby. All doors they make now have a thin piece of oak veneer over the staves and they call them solid oak doors. Prices for 1 3/8" "solid oak" doors were around $500-$600 which would be a 6 panel door. They didn't have 1 3/4" doors listed and I didn't call. I personally wanted real solid oak doors. Not a veneer. Taking a quick look on google I see the same stave construction in 1 3/4" for around $700 at one place I came upon.

What would be the going install price for a customer to install one 2/8 door in solid quarter sawn 4 or 6 panel white oak with new jambs and hardware, varnished? No stave construction, but solid one piece or laminated 3 piece. 1 3/4" thickness.

I do remember that issue in FWW and will go back and reread it closely for my grids. I have looked at alot of old books as a poster noted, and some of the doors blow me away in quality, realizing alot of these were done with minimal woodworking machinery. The skill we are losing generation by generation in some of these methods will be gone forever. Of all that goes into this build of mine, none other is more important to me than how this wood was dried. I am very fortunate to live fairly close to very large Amish woodworking plants that take my load in. This has saved me from all the ill effects on what others have faced on wood movement from improper drying techniques.

Thanks to all the comments, as I appreciate it.

[Warren Lake]

old guys that didnt have the cope and stick cutters for mullions and muntins mitred them into each other and into the rails and styles. Same as done on beaded face frames with proper mortise and tennon joinery.

Thanks on the door constrction posts Joe, wish he was here to get the storey. No question about his history, on top he was a very unique man in many ways. His construction was different depending on door thickness and core glue ups were re ripped and reglued, Six inches doors very complicated cores. It was this is the construction on doors from this thickness to that thickness. I know someone who knew him well but he didnt get clear info either. Ill kick myself for not pinning him down and making clear drawings. We did talk near the end about that if it was okay to do it and he said yeah but then decided it was time to pack it in. That last almost two years was caring for him and my mom on top, then his son as well. There is one old European that apprenticed just in doors and windows and is in his family, ill see him soon and ask how much they talked about it and if they did.

People make comments about stuff in books and lots didnt make it to books, they didnt care about recording it. THere are books on shapers but no books like the old guys doing huge church windows and big stuff and how they did it all that im aware of. He said they had two shaper guys that was all they did in a big room and the work was laid out on the floor as sometimes the windows and doors were so large.

[John TenEyck]

Greg, the mortises were 2-7/8" deep, so the loose tenons were just under 5-3/4" long. I used ash for the loose tenons. The cores of these doors were stave core LVL, with solid wood edges and 3/16" Sapele veneer. Everything was glued with plastic resin glue in a vacuum bag. If I were making a solid wood door I would use the same wood for the loose tenons as the door itself. I used TB II to glue the loose tenons into the stiles/rails. Next time, I'll use the Extended version to cut down on the time crunch.

I did get a quote from a custom door maker for those arched French doors with divided lites. They wanted something around $7K for the doors and arched jamb, including shipping, but not including finishing, the tempered glass (which cost $1300) or hardware.

The price to install a new door is going to be very dependent upon whether it's a stock or custom door. If you can find someone to make, finish, and install a custom, paneled door for $700 I would do that in a heartbeat. I'll bet you can't or, if you can, you won't be happy with the door or the quality of the installation. I'm admittedly slow, and I don't do this for a living (which means I can take more time to do it until I'm completely satisfied), but it took me 4 days to install and trim out those arched French doors, with a helper for the middle 2 days. The matching rectangular door went into an existing frame, but still took around 3 hours to install.

Personally, I don't see any disadvantages, expect more fabrication time, and potentially some advantages, both aesthetically and stability wise, to veneered stave core doors. The 3/16" shop sawn veneer I use is, for all intents and purposes, solid wood. I spent some time going through the "cottages" in Newport, RI a couple of years ago. Just about every door I looked at in those mansions was veneered over, what I assume, was stave core construction. I could see the veneer when I looked closely at the edge of the stiles. This included both the interior and most of the exterior doors. Whether those doors were original or replacements I can't say.

I have nothing against solid door construction. I just made some exterior doors using solid members. They sure were fast to make.

John

[brent stanley]

From another book here is a drawing of the reconstruction of a exterior Italian door dating from the early 1800s. A lot of the old doors in Europe were made of layers of frame and panel with battens. At that time probably not laminated.

2B18E249-EB05-46E7-85F6-AE95F0B2DAD3.jpg

Hi Joe, thanks for the clips from the book. I'd love to see more, what are the odds there are still copies of this available?

Do you have a sense of why they cut the kerfs in the stave material that is visible in your third picture?

Thanks again,

B

[Mel Fulks]

old guys that didnt have the cope and stick cutters for mullions and muntins mitred them into each other and into the rails and styles. Same as done on beaded face frames with proper mortise and tennon joinery.

I worked for a guy who almost always did that. He was extraordinarily fast. He used a chop saw to 45 them for a line then a gouge. We had a single end tenon machine but it was only used for big jobs.

[Joe Calhoon]

We do a little mitered haunching for one - off doors and windows to avoid custom tool grinds. Not my favorite way but it works. Shaper with router bit.
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