Tips for Dyeing Maple

[Dave Bunge]

I'm looking for advice in applying dye to some yarn bowls made from very plain maple. My first attempt gave a fairly light/ faint color, see picture below. I'd like to get a darker, more intense color.

Here's what I did:
1. Sanded inside and out to 320 grit.
2. Put a couple of coats of shellac (sanding sealer) on the inside and on the rim to protect against dye.
3. Raised the grain on the outside with water and sanded back to 320 grit.
4. Mixed up transtint dye in water and applied while the bowl was spinning slowly on the lathe. If I remember correctly, I put on two coats.
5. Let it dry and sanded very lightly.
6. Applied 2 coats of Minwax Antique Oil which is my usual finish. The bowl still needs more finish. I'm thinking about using wipe on poly to get a glossy look. But I don't expect that will deepen the color.

I guess the obvious things to try are making a stronger dye solution and maybe to apply more coats. But are there other things I should try, like stopping sanding at a lower grit, using DNA instead of water, spraying the dye instead of brushing it on, dyeing with black before using the red? Or maybe just give up on dye and use milk paint?

I'd appreciate hearing any suggestions you all can offer. I have 4 more bowls in waiting....

Dave

[Chris A Lawrence]

You could dye it black first then sand the black back some until most of it is gone. Then dye it red. That will make the red darker and could also make what grain is in the wood pop a little.

[Marvin Hasenak]

I used this dye https://www.mightybirdtoys.com/home.php?cat=281 it is a bird toy dye and food safe, my other dye choice was Fiebings alcohol based leather dye. On the toy dye, you mix it with rubbing alcohol, it goes a long way. Wear rubber gloves or you will be stained until it wears off. On the latter some claim it fades, I never notice any major fading, but I used a finish that had UV protectors in it, Helmsman Spar Varnish.

This was dyed with the bird toy dye.
1z2erkn.jpg frsj6.jpg

[Keith Buxton]

Dave,
I have had great success using artisan dyes from craft supplies usa they are a alcohol based and require no mixing here is a weed pot I did out of maple

[Bill Blasic]

Try mixing the Trans Tint with acetone, I believe it carries the dye deeper into the wood. I get very deep colors using Trans Tint plus the fact that it is one of the most light fast dyes out there.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

In the USA, Colonial gunsmiths used a weak Nitric Acid solution (then known as Aqua Fortis) on maple to chemically change the color of the wood. The acid was spread on the wood and then the wood was exposed to heat. As the temperature reached about 200 F, the wood would suddenly change to a rich slightly reddish brown. Sort of a sorrel color. The change is about 1/64th deep. The wood was then neutralized, you can use baking soda in water. Allowed to dry and then a final sanding and finish. I did this to some gun stocks years ago and it works fine. I just recently heard of this same process being taught at a turning school down south. The acid was available at some gunsmith supply places. twenty years ago. IIRC, it takes about 3 oz of the acid solution to do a long rifle. A chemical supply place can probably sell some, but might charge a lot for such a small quantity. for more read here: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ...2/1/AQUAFORT-2 Pdf instructions are on the download tab

[Peter Blair]

I would suggest that you are burnishing the surface with such a fine grit which will limit the pernetration. I sand to about 120 then usually apply a black leather dye sand again aggressively with 120 then add several coats of Trans Tint until I get the color I am looking for. I'm gonna try adding acetone now though to see what happens!

[Dave Bunge]

Thanks everyone for the input. Lots of interesting ideas for me to try. I think I will start with sanding to lower grit and using a base coat of black.

I sand to about 120 then usually apply a black leather dye sand again aggressively with 120 then add several coats of Trans Tint until I get the color I am looking for.

Pete, after all the dye is applied do you sand to get a smoother surface? If so, any tips on doing that without removing the dye? I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with the roughness left by 120 grit.

[Chris A Lawrence]

If the dye penetrates well it will take a lot of sanding to remove enough wood to sand it out. When you sand back the black that will give you an idea of how much wood you would need to sand off before you remove the dye.

[John Keeton]

I just recently heard of this same process being taught at a turning school down south. The acid was available at some gunsmith supply places. twenty years ago. IIRC, it takes about 3 oz of the acid solution to do a long rifle. A chemical supply place can probably sell some, but might charge a lot for such a small quantity. for more read here: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categ...2/1/AQUAFORT-2 Pdf instructions are on the download tab

Perry, you probably heard about this from someone that took my lidded bowl class at John C Campbell Folk School. I use aqua fortis often on figured maple and only on figured maple. I also use a lot of dyes in my work and if you want to know where the sanding scratches are on a piece, just dye it! They will be instantly visible. I always sand to a very, very smooth 400 grit finish before dyeing. I use Transtint and Procion MX dyes, as well as the aqua fortis. MX dyes are only used with water and whether to use Transtint in water or alcohol depends on the desired effect.

[Peter Blair]

Dave, in my opinion John is the master I but a humble servant! Yes I do sand to 400 or 600 after the final dye and because, like John I use Transtint in water it seems to get pretty deep and I usually wind up with out removing much if any color. I sometimes even wipe with a damp paper towel to even out the dye. Best of luck!

[Prashun Patel]

The trick is to get the side grain to absorb as evenly as the end grain. This is easy with black where you just do it a million times until everything is saturated. But, it's much harder with more vivid colors like red or green where you wish to maintain brightness and depth simultaneously.

I get the best, most even dye results by spraying.

Spraying allows you to layer colors. Soaking on a base coat of say yellow, and then spraying on red will not give you orange, but rather a deep red that has warm undertones. It's very hard to explain, but once you do it once you'll really appreciate. Color depth is a good and easy trick to learn.

For small work, you don't even need expensive air equipment; a reasonable air brush system will do this - and will give you even more control to overemphasize some areas (side grain) and under emphasize others (end grain).

Another trick is to dilute your dye in a small amount of shellac after you've dyed the raw wood. By sealing the wood, you basically turn the dye into an almost clear paint that sits close to the surface. This really equalizes the surface and allows the color to build quickly.

Like John K. I sand to 400. The benefits of what it does to the finish quality surpass any challenges it might give to coloring (which are easily overcome by the above).

[Dave Bunge]

Thanks John and Prashun for the input. I do have a couple of follow up questions:
1. Do you sand after applying dye, like after the base coat of yellow before applying the red, or after the final coat?
2. Have you mixed dye brands...I mean started with a coat of one brand and followed with a coat of another brand? I have yellow Procion MX and red Transtint that I would like to use on the same bowl. I'll try this first on a small sample, but would appreciate hearing about any experience you have.

Dave

[Prashun Patel]

I have layered Transtint solvent based dye over Lockwood or Transfast waterbased dye. It's not an issue.

For the base coat, I will apply yellow heavily in water with a sponge. When it dries and the grain has raised, I sand it with 400 again. But that's not really critical. You'll have to sand at least after your penultimate top coat layer.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

John Keeton said " from someone that took my lidded bowl class at John C Campbell Folk School. " Yes. it was a lidded bowl made by a member of the Lancaster PA woodturning club. As I recall he may be German or Austrian. He was wearing a traditional Bavarian hat (Trachten Hut) that evening. He showed the bowl and lid at the November 2016 meeting, which I attended as a guest. When he could not remember the name of the chemical, I piped up "Aqua fortis" from my experience with it when building PENNSYLVANIA long rifles a decade earlier.