Expand cyclone DC bin capacity

[Anthony Whitesell]

This will be the winter...that I finally get my cyclone DC put together and running. I feel it!

Currently I use a single stage DC with a 75 gallon pre-separator. But the current setup works, but just barely. I have the parts to assemble an Oneida C-950 cyclone with a 2HP motor with 14 impeller. I have been looking at the measurements and it appears that my bin will be all of 2 feet tall. The original plan was to make the bin as wide as the cyclone body. Can I make it wider? How much wider? If not, what else can be done to expand the capacity of the chip bin?

[Jim Becker]

There is no real limit on the size for your dust/chip bin, but there is likely a practical limit relative to width unless you provide a way to redistribute material that falls into the center of the bin. It will naturally flow out to a certain extent, but at some point, it's just going to be a pile in the middle. Round bins handle things better than square or rectangular. You might be able to put a "crown" on the bottom of your bin that helps things flow outward. Perhaps you can find a way to get more headroom in your installation and use a more traditional round barrel for your bin?

BTW, you likely know this, but there needs to be an absolute, totally leak-free seal between the bottom of the cyclone and your bin including the lid of the bin. Even a pin-hole can cause blow-by problems. Be careful with that.

[Prashun Patel]

You can make the bin as wide as you wish. The reason most set ups don't do it that way is two fold: a) horizontal footprint is more valuable to many people than vertical, b) a wide bin will interfere with a floor stand for the collector.

[John K Jordan]

...there is likely a practical limit relative to width unless you provide a way to redistribute material that falls into the center of the bin. It will naturally flow out to a certain extent, but at some point, it's just going to be a pile in the middle. ...

I use a 30-gal metal trash can and don't see too much of a center mound, but I've wondered what a small baffle mounted an inch or so below the lid would do. Would the turbulence it act to disperse the mound or simply disrupt the flow enough to allow more fines to be sucked up into the center column and sent to the filters? Is there enough vacuum in that area so the fines would still fall into the bin? As mine is now, even talcum-fine dust goes into the bin and almost nothing goes to the filters.

I remember reading on the ClearVue forum of several people who mounted their cyclones tilted over at an angle to put them where the ceiling was too low. Said they worked fine. Might be worth investigating.

Also, a number of people have cut holes in the ceiling to extend the motor up into the trusses/joists for more clearance for the bin.

JKJ

[Roy Petersen]

I use a 30-gal metal trash can and don't see too much of a center mound

Nor do I, using a large "Brute" can. It more flows to the outside walls, giving the appearance the "tornado effect" carries into the can also. This is mainly finer dust, so maybe it's different for larger chips.

[Prashun Patel]

beware That a wide big bin will be cumbersome to move and empty.

You might consider just getting multiple 24” bins. Swapping the full bin for an empty is the easy part. It’s the offing and emptying the full on that is a pain.

[Peter Christensen]

I remember reading on the ClearVue forum of several people who mounted their cyclones tilted over at an angle to put them where the ceiling was too low. Said they worked fine. Might be worth investigating. JKJ

I remember reading the first owners of Clear Vue did some testing and found that the cyclone worked even when laid flat with the exception that chunks of wood wouldn't go up the cone and exit. They spun around inside until it was turned off. If you were to lay your cyclone over to 45 degrees you'd gain at least a foot for the bin. Lay it over more and you can put a taller bin under. It takes more wall space but the filters could be placed under and a shelf or two above giving back some of the space. If you think about it tornadoes and waterspouts are never perpendicular to the ground and it doesn't affect their performance.

[Michael Cummins]

Hope this isn't considered hijacking this thread - if so I apologize. Seems like a logical extension of the suggestion of multiple small bins.

Anyway, any of you guys using a dust level sensor or have any other good ways of knowing when the bin is full? My situation (soon to be, shop is in design phase) is that the cyclone will be in the garage, my shop will be on the 2nd floor above the garage with the ducting in the floor of the shop. Point being, I can't see the cyclone while running tools, so any suggestions for how to know when the bin is full? I had thought about maybe cutting a view window into the side of the dust bin (and sealing it copiously of course), so that I could glance at it when walking through garage... but I assume there's a better solution that would help in the OP's case too if he were to run a rotation of a few small bins...

[John K Jordan]

Anyway, any of you guys using a dust level sensor or have any other good ways of knowing when the bin is full? ....

Michael,

I've got the bin-full sensor McRabbet sells through ClearVue. It uses optical garage door sensors shining through a short piece of flex just above the bin lid, relying on the cone of dust extending a couple of inches into the flex and shuts off the DC before the dust builds up enough to start to be pulled through the impeller. The ClearVue has a rather long cone so I don't know how this would work with a shorter cone.

The bin-full sensor package has a circuit board with logic and relays to turn off the power to the DC while activating an audible alarm and a bright strobe light (in case you can't hear the alarm). I thought the connection plan was kind of klutzy so I took it apart and mounted it in a different box along with power supply and RF remote receiver. I was able to simplify the wiring somewhat as well.

DC_control_box.jpg DC_electrical_shop_s.jpg

JKJ

[Jamie Buxton]

Back to the original post... Since you seem to be home-brewing your DC a bit, you might consider this... There's nothing that says the impeller and motor must sit on top of the cyclone body. The cyclone only cares that something is sucking a lot of air out of the top. You can put the motor and impeller housing someplace else, like to the side of the cyclone body, and gain a lot of room for your chip bin.

[Roy Petersen]

You can put the motor and impeller housing someplace else, like to the side of the cyclone body, and gain a lot of room for your chip bin.

I wonder if that wouldn't impact the amount of air moved in some way?
We did that here, putting the head up in the attic of the shop and piping down through the floor/ceiling to the cyclone and bin, but in line.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Back to the original post... Since you seem to be home-brewing your DC a bit, you might consider this... There's nothing that says the impeller and motor must sit on top of the cyclone body. The cyclone only cares that something is sucking a lot of air out of the top. You can put the motor and impeller housing someplace else, like to the side of the cyclone body, and gain a lot of room for your chip bin.

The DC is comprised of parts from Oneida. Blower, motor, cyclone body are all from Oneida.

I already measured. the take-out for the motor/impeller combination is exactly the same as 8" 90 degree turn. So there is no way to save head room in that configuration.

What is also true is that there is nothing that says the motor but be on the outlet of the cyclone body, it can be on the inlet.

[John K Jordan]

What is also true is that there is nothing that says the motor but be on the outlet of the cyclone body, it can be on the inlet.

Will it work OK like that?

One think I like about cyclones is the impeller is not in the input stream, but on the outlet where the only thing that should go through it is air and a tiny bit of the very finest dust. This can protect the impeller blades from rogue items that were sucked up. ClearVue has, or at least used to have, a PR video where they release a 30' measuring tape below a vertical drop and the suction picks it up to the ceiling, carries it horizontally and through the cyclone, and dumps it in the bin. Imagine that impacting the impeller.

Some people are concerned about stray metal picked up and causing sparks when it hits fan blades, a possible fire hazard. That doesn't seem likely with the impeller on the outlet.

Also, if the impeller were on the input side, the cyclone body and bin would be under positive pressure instead of partial vacuum. I'm not sure how that would affect the separation, if at all, but it sure would make the system harder to seal. For one thing, the lid to the big would have to be latched securely and to seal would probably have to be made of tougher stuff than the thin galvanized lid on my 30 gallon can.

I have read claims that the efficiency of the cyclone is even affected by changing the direction of rotation of the input stream and spiral drop. I could buy the ClearVue in either a Left Hand or Right Hand configuration. The one I installed (left, I think) causes the dust spiral to rotate in the opposite direction of the impeller and the associated rotation of the center column of air. How much that effects the efficiency, I don't know (mine is incredibly efficient even if it's not optimized). But if that does affect the efficiency, then the airflow in a system with an upstream impeller might be far worse. Just guessing, of course.

When I planned my shop I put in 9' ceilings, partially because of need to fit the ClearVue cyclone. It barely fits with the 30 gal can - I wish now I had built it with 10' ceilings for a little more space.

JKJ

[John Lanciani]

Will it work OK like that?

One think I like about cyclones is the impeller is not in the input stream, but on the outlet where the only thing that should go through it is air and a tiny bit of the very finest dust. This can protect the impeller blades from rogue items that were sucked up. ClearVue has, or at least used to have, a PR video where they release a 30' measuring tape below a vertical drop and the suction picks it up to the ceiling, carries it horizontally and through the cyclone, and dumps it in the bin. Imagine that impacting the impeller.

Some people are concerned about stray metal picked up and causing sparks when it hits fan blades, a possible fire hazard. That doesn't seem likely with the impeller on the outlet.

Also, if the impeller were on the input side, the cyclone body and bin would be under positive pressure instead of partial vacuum. I'm not sure how that would affect the separation, if at all, but it sure would make the system harder to seal. For one thing, the lid to the big would have to be latched securely and to seal would probably have to be made of tougher stuff than the thin galvanized lid on my 30 gallon can.

I have read claims that the efficiency of the cyclone is even affected by changing the direction of rotation of the input stream and spiral drop. I could buy the ClearVue in either a Left Hand or Right Hand configuration. The one I installed (left, I think) causes the dust spiral to rotate in the opposite direction of the impeller and the associated rotation of the center column of air. How much that effects the efficiency, I don't know (mine is incredibly efficient even if it's not optimized). But if that does affect the efficiency, then the airflow in a system with an upstream impeller might be far worse. Just guessing, of course.

When I planned my shop I put in 9' ceilings, partially because of need to fit the ClearVue cyclone. It barely fits with the 30 gal can - I wish now I had built it with 10' ceilings for a little more space.

JKJ

Search for "push through cyclone", one of the members here has written extensively about how well they work.