True coplaner bandsaw wheel adjustment?

[Doug Hepler]

Bill said "Doug H, what you did in post 14 sounds exactly like the Snodgrass method."

Sorry, but that's not my point at all. I was attempting to find a middle ground in this push-pull of opinion. I believe that Snodgrass minimizes or dismisses the importance of coplanarity. I do not. I agreed that perfect coplanarity would not be the goal but that it might be a necessary starting point for some saws that are severely out of adjustment. Examples would be my story and the situation that John TenEyck described.

out

Doug

[Art Mann]

I have only owned two bandsaws - Rikon and more recently Laguna - but both of them work quite nicely with no coplanarity adjustment. That is true after changing blades many, many times on both of them. The Rikon upper and lower wheels have always been a little out of coplanar. My only advice is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". If it worked well when it was new, don't start changing wheel alignment until you have exhausted all other options. The only useful measure of whether a bandsaw is set up correctly is the degree to which it cuts well. My experience has been that wheel alignment is not very important.

[Randy Heinemann]

My opinion is that there is no point in measuring whether the wheels are "coplanar" or not. Install the blade so the gullets of the the blade are centered on the top wheel (with crowned tires), put the correct amount of tension on the blade, set the guides, etc. properly, and the blade should track properly. I suppose that you can make other adjustments, but I've never found that was needed. So, the issue of how much out of "plane" the wheels are shouldn't really ever enter into the saw setup. If it does, there is most likely something non-fixable wrong with the bandsaw (or at least not easily fixable).

[John TenEyck]

Your comments are consistent with many others - all whom likely have never had a saw that wouldn't cut straight no matter following the owner's manual, or the advise given above. Only when you get a saw that won't cut right you either get motivated to look deeper or you get rid of the saw.

There was an earlier comment about how the wheels are set not being very important. Of course it is. One or more engineers made sure the saw was designed to whatever specs. they felt important and the manufacturing and QA followed to assure they were built to those specs. Assuming all was done correctly the buyer never has to worry about what those specs. were because the saw will cut straight doing nothing more than following the owner's manual - and the advise listed above. It's only when you get a saw that wasn't built right or has been seriously worn or abused do you realize that those won't solve the problem.

John

[Randy Heinemann]

It is absolutely true the alignment of the wheels is important, just not to the user when doing setup. If normal setup doesn't produce the result desired contacting the manufacturer is the best course of action. It is not likely that the user could determine how the wheels should be aligned for any individual manufacturer except by accident. Generally trying to align to some particular alignment only creates more problems unless the user has randomly somehow got it just right. I haven't yet been able to adjust the wheels to remedy a problem that existed. I've only made it worse.

[Edwin Santos]

I do not accept that you should adjust the fence on your bandsaw to account for drift; that's just stupid. If that were the correct response then we should adjust the table to follow that drift, too, and I've never heard anyone say that.

John

Hello John,
Have a look at this video from FWW and Michael Fortune and you will no longer be able to make your second statement above. Of course whether you agree with it or not will be your call.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNdrkmx6ehI

I've had the privilege of taking a class with Michael Fortune and he really deserves to be called a master woodworker in every respect. Following his bandsaw tuning guidelines and sawing techniques has eliminated drift from my life and taken my bandsawing to a much higher level. This was despite my skepticism while he explained it.
Not trying to start a fight with the fans of co-planarity, just reporting that Michael's procedures worked very well for me.

Edwin

[Larry Frank]

The video is interesting and seems to work. There are several different approaches by "experts" which seem to work. Perhaps, there is not just one way to get a bandsaw to work.

[Bill Space]

This thread has given me a huge amount of food for thought! Thanks for all the input!


I originally posted the question because I am trying restore the old 20” Davis and Wells bandsaw I bought to the best operating condition I can. When I got it the tires were flat and the blade tracking terrible. So I am in the “fix it mode” rather that the “make a good saw better mode.”


So the first step was to crown the tires. Made an amazing difference. Many here might have left it at that. But since I was in the fix it mode, and not knowing how misadjusted the saw might be from factory-new setup, I began to consider what the saw might have been set up like from the factory. It seemed logical to me that the wheels would have been coplaner. So my mind told me setting wheels coplaner should be my next step. This saw design makes coplaner adjustment fairly easy, once you know the method.


This process sparked my interest in the theory behind bandsaw setup and adjustment. This thread has helped a lot. For example, It never occurred to me that a manufacturer might set their saws up with the wheels in parallel planes, offset by some amount.


I may have been giving too much thought about the adverse effects of running a bandsaw with wheels out of alignment, either due to tilting the top wheel intentionally, or because of twist between the wheels, or factory offset. Shifting the wheels out of coplaner almost certainly adds stresses to the blade during operation (as compared to having the wheels coplaner), but in practice this may be inconsequential.


At this point, the message I am getting here is to move on to cutting wood, and to evaluate performance by the results and then make further adjustments as needed. I think setting the wheels on this saw coplaner was the right thing to do in my case, all things considered.


I have an old 18” light duty Grizzly saw that works well for what I use it for. Am I going to worry about checking the wheels for coplaner on that saw? Nope!


Bill

[John TenEyck]

Hello John,
Have a look at this video from FWW and Michael Fortune and you will no longer be able to make your second statement above. Of course whether you agree with it or not will be your call.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNdrkmx6ehI

I've had the privilege of taking a class with Michael Fortune and he really deserves to be called a master woodworker in every respect. Following his bandsaw tuning guidelines and sawing techniques has eliminated drift from my life and taken my bandsawing to a much higher level. This was despite my skepticism while he explained it.
Not trying to start a fight with the fans of co-planarity, just reporting that Michael's procedures worked very well for me.

Edwin

You got me, Edwin. Yes, of course you have to adjust the table parallel with the blade, exactly once as Michael Fortune so perfectly explained. I had to do exactly that both with my old 14" Delta and also with my new Grizzly since I had to take the table off that one, along with a lot of other parts, to get it down into my basement shop. But it's a one time thing.

Hallelujah, Fortune as part of this process explains why adjusting for drift is completely unnecessary. I'm sure the companies that make the Driftmaster type fences were very pleased! But he's absolutely right. If you want to use the miter slot you have to have a blade that cuts straight and parallel with the miter slot, and once you have that there's no need to skew the fence.

You'll note that Fortune never mentioned anything about wheel alignment, nor would he if the saw was new and/or in good operating condition. I'd be interested in his approach, however, if he had my 14" Delta in the condition I started with.

I would love to take a class with Michael. He is one of the writers I respect most.

John

[Chris Parks]

Following on from my mention of moving the table I made above it actually makes more sense when you think about it. Set the blades the same each time and if the table is aligned to the blades then the fence will line up with minimal need to adjust tracking. if you follow the Snodgrass method the table gets removed for each blade change so setting the table in one position would not be possible.

[John TenEyck]

Bill, you might find this interesting. I just looked at the owner's manual for my G0636X 17" bandsaw. There is a whole section about "Wheel Alignment" which starts out "Wheel alignment is one of the most critical factors for optimal performance from your bandsaw. Heat, vibration, wandering, blade wear, tire wear and overall bandsaw wear are considerably decreased when the wheels are properly aligned, or "coplaner" Coplaner wheels automatically track the blade by balancing it on the crown of the wheel. This is known as coplanar tracking."

The chapter then goes on to show you how to check the wheels, using a simple wooden gage, and how to adjust the wheels if they are not coplanar.

I rest my case.

John

[Bill Space]

John and all,

i downloaded the manual for John’s saw and see two things I find interesting.

The first is that apparently all Taiwanese manufacturers of bandsaws do not offset the wheels as a manufacturing practice. The Grizzly manual does specifically call out making the wheels coplaner.

The second was that they specify measuring wheel position at points both in front and behind the axles.

This is is in agreement with my initial intuition, but still does not dispute the fact that some amount of mis alignment may be inconsequential.

I am becoming more relaxed as to how precise bandsaws need to be adjusted. But I am still happy to see the Grizzly procedure is about identical with my initial thinking. ��

[John TenEyck]

Yes, the wheels need to be precisely aligned, not just with relation to their faces (coplaner) but also at the midpoint of their diameter so that the blade runs plumb with respect to the table. This is the only way that I know of that will get the blade running perpendicular to the table when viewed from both the front and side. Perpendicular from the front is key to being able to adjust the blade guides up and down without rubbing the blade on one side or the other. From the side is key to being able to cut tenon shoulders, etc.

Many folks seem to believe that a bandsaw is an inherently imprecise machine compared to a tablesaw, for example. While it's true you can't take off a few thousandths like you can with a TS, a bandsaw can be tuned to cut very accurately, whether it comes from the factory that way or not.

IMHO you are wise to question what you read here or anywhere else, including this. Do your own testing. Draw your own conclusions. Then you'll know what's correct.

John

[John K Jordan]

IMHO you are wise to question what you read here or anywhere else, including this. Do your own testing. Draw your own conclusions. Then you'll know what's correct.

That should be on a banner at the top of every page on every forum on the internet!

[Rod Sheridan]

Many folks seem to believe that a bandsaw is an inherently imprecise machine compared to a tablesaw, for example. While it's true you can't take off a few thousandths like you can with a TS, a bandsaw can be tuned to cut very accurately, whether it comes from the factory that way or not.



John

Very true John, in the band saw seminar I host I make a bridle joint using the band saw only. The tenon isn't as smooth as one you make on the shaper however the fit is certainly accurate enough.

People are always amazed..............Rod.