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Thread: Plane blade expectations

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
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    Moscow, Russia
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    49
    Jessica, so you basically sharpen the back bevel until burr removal?

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Calgary AB
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    Alexander; Half a days work prepping multiple boards is a decent amount of work and wear on the irons. For a blade at 25 degrees going half a day of planing and sometimes hitting varnish and going right back into it the next day without sharpening and then only stropping - this is simply not enough maintenance. Way too high expectations. Like way way too high. Even for a 30 degree bevel that's not enough sharpening. The scrub plane can be quite quite dull and work well, and the smoother blades are just smoothing pine, thin shavings nice and calming. But the Jack needs to flatten and leave a decent surface so more work but a sharp blade still needed. I also just realized my jack gets a little help from my jointer plane. I can live with a little surface fuzz and discrepancies from the jack which I clean up in a jiffy with a jointer plane.

    Sometimes in more serious planing and prep on very gnarly stuff I will start popping out my blades every 15-30 minutes and run them through the finer stones in about 30 seconds each. This is for stuff like curly exotics so overkill is not overkill. Stropping should be used more near the beginning of wear showing to help avoid more trips to the sharpening sessions. Sharpening isn't all that fun but trying to strop out real nicks and rolled steel is worse as it is futile. Having to spend more time sharpening out those nicks and rolled steel is also not fun. All that being said, maybe take a look at your burr removal. Every now and then we all miss a bit of something and then that's when you start getting steel folding.

    Also, something like a marine varnish or really thick film finish is not good for the blades. Thats a lootttttt of wear. I think they also really contribute to a wear bevel. I usually use a Stanley no5 with a blade I'm not too fond of for something like that.

    Sharpening is something we just can't escape. Best of luck finding a setup you will like. It may take a while but I think it's possible. It would be interesting to hear how batch sharpening goes for you. On a side note; the MKII veritas jig is only 1-2-3 degrees higher if you twist the side brass knob that allows for that. Other wise if the knob is set at the "first position" then your blades are not coming out 1 or 2 degrees steeper; just the normal angle.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    Austin Texas
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    1,957
    Just a very slight lift of the back end of the blade when working the back bevel in ought to do it and then you are working towards the already-sharpened front side, That should result in not very many strokes when putting that tiny back bevel on Alexander. I believe this is one of those things that do not require any jigs or inordinate attempts at exact precision to achieve a result.
    David

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Southwest Virginia
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    277
    One of the biggest differences in my hand tool skills came from sharpening early and often. I went through several different methods before I got to one that is quick and easy for me. I use the Shapton Pro stones at 1000, 5000, and 12000 grits. As long as there are no major issues with the edge other than dullness, it takes 10-20 strokes per grit and then I'm back in business. I don't have running water in my shop, but the Shapton's just need a splash. I have a rubber boot tray that they sit in along with a spray bottle. It's easy and makes no mess.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Stone Mountain, GA
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    751
    I think most people have found the biggest problem, which is that the 25 degree iron did not hold up. For each tool, you need to find the lowest edge angle where the blade consistently fails by wear alone, without taking visible damage. For bevel down planes this is usually 30-35 degrees.

    If you only have to remove wear (slight rounding of the egde), and not deal with removing chips, then sharpening is relatively quick and painless.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
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    9,467
    Derek, could you please share the source of that 7* clearance recommendation?
    Leonard Lee: "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" (That is Rob Lee's dad).

    Derek, how often do you usually sharpen? I mean if PM-V11 was capable of 60 shavings cross-grain, why not to raise that number to 100 shavings?
    For instance I'm occasional weekend woodworker and need to clean up the sink to sharpen. Preparations and cleaning up the mess after sharpening takes time and I'm certainly trying to sharpen several tools at once. So I usually hesitate to sharpen weekly, more like every other week.
    Alexander, I have no idea how often I sharpen.I am fortunate to have a workshop with running water. I sharpen when it is needed. It is a long time since I compared the longevity of blade steels. I have no interest in this much of the time. Still, I do have blades which are O1, and it is very obvious that they do not hold an edge as long as the PM-V11.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Austin Texas
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    Alexander - I just read a story from Paul Sellers' blog where he describes the mentor in the shop Paul was apprenticed to sharpening his plane three times in an hour and a half session of cleaning the surface of some oak timber. As I understood the story, there was no real roughing, flattening or straightening work done, just cleaning up the surface of the timber for immediate use. Each sharpening session (using a coarse/fine oilstone and then hand stropping) lasted approximately two minutes or so.
    David

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Jessica

    I've not tried a 5 degree backbevel on a BU plane. In theory, this would take the clearance angle close to the 7 degrees recommended as the lower limit. In practice, I have never found that a 25 degree bevel angle needed strengthening on a BU plane. I have used a wide range of steels and typically hard and abrasive woods. The low cutting angle and force vectors in this BU set up appear to reduce the stresses at the bevel edge. This is different from the force vectors of a BD plane with a common angle (45 degree) bed.

    This comparison of two shooting planes illustrates the difference: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...tingPlane.html

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    In a bevel up plane, bedding 12 degrees, a 25 degree bevel angle gives you a cutting angle of 37 degrees. That is a lot less then the typical cutting angle from a bevel down plane, 45 degrees. I guess the difference you saw in edge life is due to this difference in cutting angle, not because of the orientation of the bevel. Physically seen it doesn't matter if the bevel points up or down, because all cutting is being done within a few tenths of a mm, much less then the length of the bevel.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
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    Kees, I agree that a cutting angle is the same for the wood whether BU or BD. Still, there are two factors to take note of in the shooting experiment. The first is whether bed angle plays a role, regardless of cutting angle? I am not a structural engineer and cannot answer this. The second is that the BU plane will always present a lower cutting angle, and the bevel angle can be lower as well. Raising the bevel angle on the BD plane does not increase edge longevity. So, is longevity due to the lower bed angle, or the lower cutting angle?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #25
    I recommend sharpening every 20 minutes or even more often. That way you will get used to using sharp irons instead of being used to dull irons. When you can notice the difference in sharpness that 5 or 10 minutes of use makes you will start to have some judgement as to when to sharpen.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Austin Texas
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    1,957
    I am a firm believer that setting up some type of a sharpening station (of whatever type that works best for you and your own restrictions as to what can be set up) that allows the stones to be as ready for immediate use as possible is a big part of sharpening at the appropriate time. Make it as easy to sharpen as possible and it will be that less of a chore. Also, FOR ME, not using multiple blades until such time as they all are dull and consequently all need sharpening works best rather than needing to sharpen lots of blades in the middle of a project. I tend to do my "lots" of sharpening at the beginning, end or completion of a milestone task of a project. However, I do grant that each to his own works best.
    David

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I recommend sharpening every 20 minutes or even more often. That way you will get used to using sharp irons instead of being used to dull irons. When you can notice the difference in sharpness that 5 or 10 minutes of use makes you will start to have some judgement as to when to sharpen.
    +++1 on the honing before-it-gets-too-dull advice.

    Implied in that advice is that you must learn how to sharpen your blades free hand. The advice becomes a little less practical if you have to use a jig every time you stop and hone an edge. The easiest way from a learning point of view to sharpen free hand (which I don't like or use) is the Paul Sellers's way.

    Whatever free-hand method you use, from taking out the blade to honing it to replacing it in the plane, each free-hand sharpening should take just a couple minutes or so (especially if you go with the micro-bevel approach).

    Simon
    Last edited by Simon MacGowen; 10-09-2018 at 11:59 PM.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Kees, I agree that a cutting angle is the same for the wood whether BU or BD. Still, there are two factors to take note of in the shooting experiment. The first is whether bed angle plays a role, regardless of cutting angle? I am not a structural engineer and cannot answer this. The second is that the BU plane will always present a lower cutting angle, and the bevel angle can be lower as well. Raising the bevel angle on the BD plane does not increase edge longevity. So, is longevity due to the lower bed angle, or the lower cutting angle?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    I think one should be exact in these descriptions. If you could get a bevel down plane with a 37 degree bedding angle, I suspect it would give the same edge life as a bevel up plane with 12 degree bedding and 25 degree sharpening angle. I can't prove it, because I didn't ever test stuff like that, but technically there would be no reason for different behaviour.

    Now, ebay is chockfull of bd planes with a 45 degree bedding and not a single one with 37 degrees. So you might say that the BU plane configuration leads to longer edge life, because it allows lower cutting angles. But that is more of a market issue then a technical one.

    BTW, I do think that a close set chipbreaker leads to better results too, because it gives support really close to the edge, leading to less vibration. Another thing I can't really prove, but vibration is rarely good for a construction.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
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    9,467
    Kees, it is relevant to recall the context of my post being a reply to the OP, who was asking about the longevity of PM-V11 blades honed at different angles. My reply was, in effect, that a low cutting angle (bed, if you will) will outlast a high cutting angle (higher bed, if you will). However, specifically, a 25 degree bevel is too low for a BD plane (generally 45 degree bed), which requires a higher bevel angle (e.g. 30 degrees).

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 10-10-2018 at 5:39 AM.

  15. #30
    Now you are confusing things . Cutting angle is not bedding angle. You can skip all the aditional designators (bedding angle, bevel orientation) when you concentrate on cutting angle. The cutting angle is in the end the thing that determines cutting behaviour.

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