Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Water Based Stain

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Fort Wayne IN
    Posts
    1,210

    Water Based Stain

    I have a couple of projects using poplar. I plan to use a stain pre conditioner and then apply stain. Both products are water based.

    Two questions

    1 Any thoughts on the Minwax pre conditioner as a good product? I have used Charles Neil's conditioner but with shipping it is way more expensive although I provides excellent resulus. I have never used the Minwax brand.
    2 Is it OK to just use the stain as final coat, or, do I really need to apply a clear topcooat of finish?
    Sometimes decisions from the heart are better than decisions from the brain.

    Enjoy Life...

  2. #2
    I can't really answer your first question as I've never used Minwax water based products. I have used WD Lockwood's water-based stains (actually dyes I think). I just use plain water as a pre-conditioner, lightly sand off the fuzz, and then apply the dye in two or three coats. I have no idea is this is the right technique but I've had great results on pine which is notoriously blotch prone. Not sure how it would work on Polar. I don't like it on oak as it doesn't give good contrast between the open grain and closed grain areas.

    As to your second question, you must top coat in my opinion. In my experience with water stains they will come off with with water after dry and water may also raise the grain again. Plus water stains are pretty flat and need a top coat to look decent. Maybe Minwax products are different...

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,638
    Did Minwax change their pre-stain conditioner to a water soluble format? The can I have is solvent based.

    Honestly, I just put the water soluble dye right on the poplar (and pretty much anything else) and don't have a problem with the results. But I also don't "believe" in "blotch".
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    2,162
    Always clear coat over stain. You need to do it to protect the timber and the stain. The stain just soaked in and so will everything else. Clear coat also reveals the colour. As stains dry they dull off and turn slightly grey. You can watch this happening as you work through staining a job. Applying the clear brings it back to life.

    Others will have to pass comment on preconditioning. It's not a part of my procedures regardless of timber species. Cheers

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    2,162
    ... and as Jim says, I don't believe in blotch either.

    As a general comment, practice application techniques on scrap to get it right. If stain doesn't go on evenly, the wrong technique was used. Extra products help someone's sales figures and not much else. Finishing materials suppliers are just as addicted to selling the equivalent of useless gadgets as any other retailer. Walk into a paint shop and there are really only about half a dozen routinely useful items on the shelf. The rest just traps for your wallet. Cheers
    PS apologies for the sermonising... 3.47am and can't get back to sleep. Cheers

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Shoreline, CT
    Posts
    2,923
    I'm not much in favor of waterborne stain, largely because it often dries too quickly so that it is a challenge to avoid overlaps or other unevenness. This is dramatically different from using powdered water soluble dye. Dye is much easier to apply since you can mix it so that you merely have to flood it on the The testing should include the top coat since it changes the color significantly. But, if in the end you don't like the result, a damp wipe down with water will remove dye to lighten the effect. Chlorine bleach could remove almost all the dye color.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    WNY
    Posts
    9,599
    I'm not in the same camp here I guess. Poplar does indeed blotch and it seems enough people think so that you can read all kinds of ways to try to avoid it. I didn't know MW made a WB prestain conditioner but if they do I suspect it's just their neutral base. That might indeed help reduce the amount of blotchiness you get with the stain; worth a shot on some scrap to see. I would sand to at least 220 grit, maybe even 320 grit first. The finer you sand it the less blotching you will get, but at the expense of getting the full effect from the stain. More on that in a minute. I would try one specimen with just the conditioner, let it dry and then apply the stain, and another specimen that you sand lightly after the conditioner has dried before applying the stain. The second approach will remove the conditioner from the less porous areas of the wood while leaving it in the more porous (blotch prone) areas, and help give a more uniform staining job. At least this works in some cases. If either approach works but the color is not as dark as you want after one coat of stain, you can apply a second coat to make it deeper and there should be no risk of blotching with it.

    And definitely put clearcoat over the stain.

    You can extend the working time of WB stains by adding Extender to it. Benjamin Moore makes a great Extender for WB paints and stains. Extending the open time allows you to get uniform results on large surface areas.

    John
    Last edited by John TenEyck; 09-26-2018 at 4:35 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,638
    John, my comment about blotch wasn't meant to mean that it doesn't exist. I just consider it a feature of the wood grain, rather than a negative thing. Over time, I find it tends to fade in many cases anyway.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Fort Wayne IN
    Posts
    1,210
    Minwax does make a water based pre conditioner. Really thinking about trying the dye after reading the comments. Any recommendations on a good performer?

    Thanks
    Sometimes decisions from the heart are better than decisions from the brain.

    Enjoy Life...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    WNY
    Posts
    9,599
    I really like Transtint dyes, which are soluble in both water and alcohol. But let's be clear, dyes will blotch on blotch prone woods, too, if applied by hand, same as stains. The only way to pretty much avoid blotching is to spray on the dye. And there are spray-no-wipe stains, too, so you have choices - if you can spray. If not, I'd try the pre conditioner.
    John

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Fort Wayne IN
    Posts
    1,210
    Thanks for the info.
    Sometimes decisions from the heart are better than decisions from the brain.

    Enjoy Life...

  12. #12
    I'm such a beginner with powdered water soluble dies I'm almost afraid to offer my opinion, but here goes....

    I have used water soluble dyes (applied by hand) on western sugar pine, clear Douglas fir (normal and vertical grain) and oak. Oak doesn't tend to blotch but pine very much does. Normal grain Douglas fir is close to pine in its tendency to blotch. I have found that the initial coat of dye will dry a bit blotchy, but every subsequent coat evens it out. I usually end up with three coats. My guess is the open grain areas don't get any darker, but the closed grain areas do with each subsequent coat. I use pretty dilute mixes so I don't end up with the final color being too dark. I would think the same technique would work on other blotch prone woods.

    My results with pine and DF far exceeded my expectations. I can get a very even color in both materials with just enough contrast between open and closed grain areas to show the grain and not look "plasticy". Admittedly, I have not tried this with dark brown colors. But I have been able to use colors from honey amber to red mahogany with this technique. Just for kicks I tried the same pine and DF with Minwax and got terrible blotch. As mentioned in a previous post, I don't like water dye's on oak. It doesn't seem to make the grain pop and does look a little plasticy.

    Just my 2 cents...

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Shoreline, CT
    Posts
    2,923
    Dye can still work on oak and other open pored wood. The secret is to think of the dye as just a first step to establish a base coloration. After the dye dries, a pigmented stain can be used to obtain contrast and pop the pores. It can either be a bit darker than the stain (the usual choice) or it can be lighter color, or for that matter even a different color--for example a yellow dye, topped with an (the complement) purple pigmented stain. For even more contrast, top the dye coat with wash coat of shellac (as light as 1 lb. cut.)

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Encinitas, CA
    Posts
    671
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schoene View Post
    I'm not much in favor of waterborne stain, largely because it often dries too quickly so that it is a challenge to avoid overlaps or other unevenness. This is dramatically different from using powdered water soluble dye. Dye is much easier to apply since you can mix it so that you merely have to flood it on the The testing should include the top coat since it changes the color significantly. But, if in the end you don't like the result, a damp wipe down with water will remove dye to lighten the effect. Chlorine bleach could remove almost all the dye color.
    You can use extender in the stain ands still get the target color. The challenge with waterborne stains is that they change color when dry and then darken back up when finish is applied. Since I started using extender (5%) my lap marks have disappeared.
    Gary

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •