Half-Blind Angled Dovetails

[Julie Moriarty]

I worked almost 5 hours cutting and chopping out the first of four pin and tail sets and I'm still not done. I'm hoping for some help in making this go a bit easier. FWIW, this is only my second hand cut dovetails.

This is the plan


Rather than those classic looking dovetails with the narrow pins, I went with structural strength. The table will have to hold up to being slid around on a laminate floor to clean around it.

The first tail took me about two hours to complete.




But the pins took even longer


For the next set I plan on using a forstner bit to remove some of the waste. I have a Leigh D4 but it's such a pain to set up I've developed an aversion to using it. Any tips or suggestions?

Thanks.
Julie

[Derek Cohen]

Julie, I've done many angled dovetails. What is it you want to know?

Here's a video of those I did on drawers in a bow-fronted apothecary chest ...



As a rule-of-thumb, anything with a curve or angled join will take 4 times longer than a square join.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

For the next set I plan on using a forstner bit to remove some of the waste. I have a Leigh D4 but it's such a pain to set up I've developed an aversion to using it. Any tips or suggestions?

I've used a trim router with a 1/8" upcut bit to clear the waste ...





When removing the remaining waste, I found that the thinner blades of the Blue Spruce "dovetail" chisels worked best to pare away thin slices to the line..



The Blue Spruce fishtail chisel is my favourite for clearing the corners of sockets ...



The completed socket ..



Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furnitu...Weekend10.html


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks, Derek. That's definitely the kind of joint I'm attempting.

The first set was all hand tools. The wood is sipo (utile) and seems just as hard as jatoba. The chisels I used most on the first set already need re-sharpening.

I fully expect the fitting to take another hour or more, each, and I know that's unavoidable, given my lack of experience and expertise. I was just hoping to find some way to reduce the time it takes to rough out the sockets. Forstner? Router? (kinda scary freehand)

Another question is with half-blind pins, since you can only saw out the edges partially, what tools should be used to get inside? Is it all just chisels?

I suppose if I had the D4 set up properly, the pins would be fairly easy. However using it on the tails would take some engineering. But I kind of wanted to do this by hand. I just don't want to be foolish about it and spend a week just for bragging rights.

[Derek Cohen]

Another question is with half-blind pins, since you can only saw out the edges partially, what tools should be used to get inside? Is it all just chisels?

Hi Julie

If you wish to be a pure Neanderthal, then saw the sockets, and clean them out with just a chisel. I have done my share this way, but now look for ways to do this with greater efficiency. I have drilled out some of the waste, and (above) used a trim router to great effect, since this also can level the floor.

Clearing waste from half blond dovetails with a chisel is easier when the sides of the socket extend the full depth. As you know, sawing only creates a diagonal cut, and does not extend the kerf all the way. For this reason I extend the kerf with a kerf chisel (it is not a chisel - just looks like one).

I also mark out for transferring tails to pins with blue tape. This is especially helpful when the wood is dark and it is difficult to see lines in end grain.

Here's an example of drilling waste ...



This is the kerf chisel in action ...




Here is a short video of them in action (terrible video - I have only made a couple, and probably will never do so again!) ..




Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks again, Derek! I've never heard of a kerf chisel.

As for going pure neanderthal, if that means no power tools, well, I'm not there yet. I like how you drilled out some of the waste. To me that doesn't void the concept of "hand cut" because so much is still done by hand.

[Gary Cunningham]

“Only your second set”? Then I’m a monkeys uncle. Those are very clean and precise.

Nice, very nice.

[Warren Mickley]

I agree with Gary, the dovetails are precise and that is good news. As for speed, I think the fastest way is with chisels alone. The big help is to be able to quickly chisel the bulk of the waste without going over the lines and then finish up with more careful cuts. The more skilled you are the closer you can get to the lines with coarse work and the less cleaning up.

When chopping multiple sockets, do all your cutting in tandem: the same cut on every socket (three in your case). This saves time in positioning and changing tools and such. Making one socket at a time is considerably slower.

I have one concern about your design: it appears that the legs are only supported by the dovetail at the bottom. This makes them vulnerable to racking because of the great leverage involved. When we use dovetails for a box or frame, all for have to flex if one does because there are dovetails all around. If you have some way to tie the legs together at or near the top that would be very helpful.

[Julie Moriarty]

“Only your second set”? Then I’m a monkeys uncle. Those are very clean and precise.

Nice, very nice.

Looks can be deceiving. Just banged the first two pieces home and it ain't pretty.


This reminds me what it was about dovetails that kept me from starting many but completing only one.

[Derek Cohen]

Julie, the gaps between and around the sockets and tails looks pretty even. That suggests to me that there is either a little waste between the parts holding them apart, or a baseline wall is slightly tapered. Check this. It should close up at the baselines.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Eisenhauer]

Are the ends of the tails each dead-solid square? Are the pin socket end lines dead-solid square (vertical)?, and also, they can be slightly undercut so as to prevent any way possible holding off the perfect seating of the tail board. You can work with that dovetail as it is very close and the offset is consistent as Derek pointed out. Looks to me you are well beyond the "crawling" stage, into the "walking" stage and soon to be in the "running stage". Something only needs a fine tweak and, apparently, your basic technique is sound. I use one of those small sliding squares to check close tolerances in dovetails for dead-solid square that helps a lot.

[Julie Moriarty]

Are the ends of the tails each dead-solid square? Are the pin socket end lines dead-solid square (vertical)?

Probably both are not square. Though they look it when I've put a square to them. Inexperience, old eyes, etc. The problem is most likely that the inside, that I used to mark the pins, was larger than the outside.

Also, when trying to drive the tail home, it kept stopping shy of being fully seated. I'd go back and chisel away wherever it looked tight and pared using guides but it kept coming up shy. I ended up shaving a bit off the inside of the tail ends to get it to seat fully. I suppose trying to make dovetails that are so thick adds to the difficulty of making angled half-blind dovetails.

I'm not ready to give up yet. I have some other ideas floating around in my head I want to try.

[Jim Koepke]

I've never heard of a kerf chisel.

A piece of an old saw blade can be used as a "kerf chisel."

Here is a different design than the one Derek made:

Kerf Maker.jpg

It helps to make the work quicker and neater.

jtk

[Julie Moriarty]

A piece of an old saw blade can be used as a "kerf chisel."

Here is a different design than the one Derek made:

It helps to make the work quicker and neater.

jtk

I was thinking of first trying a Dozuki saw I have like this
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I could peck away at the inside with the woodpecker tooth. The sipo I have can be pretty gnarly and at times has a mind of its own. A saw is more controllable than a chisel, at least from what I've seen of this wood so far in this exercise.

I'm also going to lay some blue tape over the wood before marking, as Derek showed in his video. That will better define the edges and make them easier to see with these far-sighted eyes. They are better suited for spotting land on the horizon than for micro-surgery.

[Brian Holcombe]

Are you using a knife to layout? If you are then always retain the knife line.

Probably the guide block slipped when you were chopping.

Beginners have a habit of chopping with the bevel up. This drives the force of the chisel toward the baseline. Chop using the bevel (bevel down) which gives you mechanical advantage and helps the waste move out quickly.

Bevel up (or out) is extremely hard on the chisel. I use it only for th walls or floor after the waste us out.