Clearvue is releasing a new metal cyclone, the Pentz EF5

[David Kumm]

The issue at hand is that the manufacturer had their own people assisting with the installation.

my understanding is CV was assisting but not mandating the type of install. Dave

[Peter Christensen]

We should probably separate the discussion of the new product from the implementation on the video. Manufacturers can suggest installation and electrical preferences but not mandate them. Every buyer can install DC correctly or however they wish, but none can modify the design of the cyclone or impeller. Dave

I agree with David in that we have strayed away from the announcement of a new product to critiquing the installation of it in one shop. I played a roll in that in the beginning so have to take my lumps for it too. They should be separate discussions as any new information about the cyclone itself will be lost in the discussion of the ducts and wiring and new readers won't want to sift through pages of posts looking for that information.

[Chris Parks]

The cyclone itself is a product CV are aiming at the commercial market with. I am installing a Max into such a workshop at the moment and I regret we are a bit ahead of this announcement as I would like to have used it. Such is life.

[Joe Jensen]

I just called Clearvue. The EF5 with a steel collection drum, filter clean out, electrical box/remote with filters (basically like the bundles for the other cyclones but with a collection drum) is roughly $3500. This puts it just above the Oneida Dust Gorilla Pro Smart 5hp.

I have the 5HP Oneida Smart is it moves about twice the CFM through the 3", 4", and 5" ports on nearly all my machines as compared to a 5HP Oneida regular. The Smart uses a Variable speed drive to increase the RPM resulting in higher suction pressure when the CFM is low. The reason this is important is that nearly all machines have relatively small ports inside the machine at the point of dust collection. When you use Bill Pentz's spreadsheet to analyze system performance you'll find that the smallest cross sectional area in a duct drives like 90% of the resistance. This is why putting 8" ducts to the machines most of us have is silly. But the Smart technology really does make a difference. When the port is small like inside my Felder 700 series sliding table saw, the Smart speeds up increasing pressure resulting in higher CFM.

[Chris Parks]

I have the 5HP Oneida Smart is it moves about twice the CFM through the 3", 4", and 5" ports on nearly all my machines as compared to a 5HP Oneida regular. The Smart uses a Variable speed drive to increase the RPM resulting in higher suction pressure when the CFM is low. The reason this is important is that nearly all machines have relatively small ports inside the machine at the point of dust collection. When you use Bill Pentz's spreadsheet to analyze system performance you'll find that the smallest cross sectional area in a duct drives like 90% of the resistance. This is why putting 8" ducts to the machines most of us have is silly. But the Smart technology really does make a difference. When the port is small like inside my Felder 700 series sliding table saw, the Smart speeds up increasing pressure resulting in higher CFM.

Joe, I have yet to see anyone recommend an 8" duct to any machine a hobby woodworker would use. All four inch ports should be opened to 6" for maximum flow is the recommendation that is made by BP. I recommend that plus leaving a 6" port open at all times to maintain adequate air flow and scrub the air at the same time if an 8" main duct is used as is generally done with a CV Max. I doubt any impeller smaller than the Max would work with an 8" duct at 60hz. All Oneida are doing is using a three phase motor with VFD to control speed which is how every CV in Oz has been installed from day one so I guess I beat Oneida with that one. If Oneida are using a backwards inclined impeller then pushing the speed much beyond 60hz has limited advantage as David Kumm has pointed out previously. Having said that I run my 1800 at 65hz, I have seen a rag get into the impeller housing at 58hz on a CV Max and it blew the side out of the housing so any speed much greater than that is playing with fire if the same thing were to happen. Sorry to quote Hz instead of RPM but I think it is the best way to do it. The nominal speed of a cyclone in the US is 60hz and in most other countries it is 50Hz.

[Jon Snider]

One detail which may be an issue for some folks is height clearance. From the specs sent to me by Cathy, the EF5 requires 107” which IIRC is about a foot taller than the earlier CV’s.

Wont work for my basement.

Jon

[Jon Snider]

Here was the pricing info:

We are very excited about our new metal line! We are still finalizing the product page on our website, but they are now available for purchase with about a three-week lead time. I have attached some literature and specs on the unit.

Pricing will depend on configuration:
Pentz EF5 Single Phase Metal Cyclone w/Filters - 6" Intake & 30 gallon drum $3,290.00
Pentz EF5 Single Phase Metal Cyclone w/Filters - 8" Intake & 30 gallon drum $3,390.00
Pentz EF5 Single Phase Metal Cyclone no Filters - 6" Intake & 30 gallon drum $2,790.00
Pentz EF5 Single Phase Metal Cyclone no Filters - 8" Intake & 30 gallon drum $2,890.00
Pentz EF5 Three Phase Metal Cyclone w/Filters - 6" Intake & 30 gallon drum $3,105.00
Pentz EF5 Three Phase Metal Cyclone w/Filters - 8" Intake & 30 gallon drum $3,205.00
Pentz EF5 Three Phase Metal Cyclone no Filters - 6" Intake & 30 gallon drum $2,600.00
Pentz EF5 Three Phase Metal Cyclone no Filters - 8" Intake & 30 gallon drum $2,700.00

In addition to the system, the package includes a wall mounting bracket, filter clean out pan and remote start (single phase systems only). We do also offer an upgrade to a 55 gallon drum for an additional $100. Freight charges are not included.

Please note that these systems are only available with a left-hand intake.

[Joe Jensen]

Joe, I have yet to see anyone recommend an 8" duct to any machine a hobby woodworker would use. All four inch ports should be opened to 6" for maximum flow is the recommendation that is made by BP. I recommend that plus leaving a 6" port open at all times to maintain adequate air flow and scrub the air at the same time if an 8" main duct is used as is generally done with a CV Max. I doubt any impeller smaller than the Max would work with an 8" duct at 60hz. All Oneida are doing is using a three phase motor with VFD to control speed which is how every CV in Oz has been installed from day one so I guess I beat Oneida with that one. If Oneida are using a backwards inclined impeller then pushing the speed much beyond 60hz has limited advantage as David Kumm has pointed out previously. Having said that I run my 1800 at 65hz, I have seen a rag get into the impeller housing at 58hz on a CV Max and it blew the side out of the housing so any speed much greater than that is playing with fire if the same thing were to happen. Sorry to quote Hz instead of RPM but I think it is the best way to do it. The nominal speed of a cyclone in the US is 60hz and in most other countries it is 50Hz.

I'd say at least monthly I see someone on the internet install or advocate for 8" duct. Most recently April Wilkerson's install. Most people confuse the opening on the side of the machine with the port. I owned a Sawstop ICS. It had a port on the back, can't recall if it was 4" or 5". Inside the saw it connected to a 3" flex hose that connected to the cast iron blade shroud under the blade. The actual opening in that blade shroud was like 1.25" by 2.5" or 3.125 Sq Inches. That's equivalent to a 2" diameter port. It's not really possible to open that port up. Take my Felder FK700SP. Same deal. 120mm (5") port on the side of the machine that connects to small flex duct inside that connects to a small rectangular port in the cast iron blade shroud. This one is a bit larger than the Sawstop but way less than 3" equivalent. On the shaper side of the Felder the 4" port on the side of the machine connects to a small diameter flex hose inside that connects to a very small rectangular opening that is the equivalent of less than a 2" diameter duct. It too is in the cast iron structure of the machine. If you study fluid dynamics you will learn that the minimum cross sectional area of any part of a duct drives nearly all of the resistance to airflow.

[Peter Christensen]

Clear Vue have posted the information on the new cyclone on the website. http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/19-pentz-ef5 Other than the metal construction and more duct connection options it seems to be the same as a CV-Max. More costly though.

[Chris Parks]

I'd say at least monthly I see someone on the internet install or advocate for 8" duct. Most recently April Wilkerson's install. Most people confuse the opening on the side of the machine with the port. I owned a Sawstop ICS. It had a port on the back, can't recall if it was 4" or 5". Inside the saw it connected to a 3" flex hose that connected to the cast iron blade shroud under the blade. The actual opening in that blade shroud was like 1.25" by 2.5" or 3.125 Sq Inches. That's equivalent to a 2" diameter port. It's not really possible to open that port up. Take my Felder FK700SP. Same deal. 120mm (5") port on the side of the machine that connects to small flex duct inside that connects to a small rectangular port in the cast iron blade shroud. This one is a bit larger than the Sawstop but way less than 3" equivalent. On the shaper side of the Felder the 4" port on the side of the machine connects to a small diameter flex hose inside that connects to a very small rectangular opening that is the equivalent of less than a 2" diameter duct. It too is in the cast iron structure of the machine. If you study fluid dynamics you will learn that the minimum cross sectional area of any part of a duct drives nearly all of the resistance to airflow.

Joe, I repeat you will never see a recommendation to run an 8" duct to a hobby machine. What you will see is a recommendation to run a 6" duct to a machine FROM an 8" main duct. I think this is standard practise for hobby workshops if using a 16" impeller. There has been some recommendation to use 7" with a 15" impeller some years ago but I don't think this has become widespread. As for your comments on the definition of a port I am equally confused with what you wrote, the port as I understand it is the exhaust extraction opening on the machine.

[Matt Mattingley]

I’ve looked through the website and maybe I’m not looking in the right spot. Where is the fan curve documentation? What size is the fan in depth of blades? Is the fan aluminum or cast iron? The only thing I see so far is it is 16 inches and it is a material handling straight blade fan.

Bill Pentz suggested a backwards curve would be more efficient and less noise.

I would like to see and compare apples to apples. I built a Pentz cyclone, with a five horse power motor. I’m only running 6 inch main. My drops are only 5 inches. My intake into the cyclones is a 4 x 10 or 40²”. My motor only has a 22 amp rating. With my filters removed dust bin removed and no duck work my motor was pulling just over 29 A. This would be the max flow through a 9 inch diameter intake into the blower with amperage draw.

If somebody has purchased this unit I would like to compare apples to apples.

I have made my own fan. My fan is 17 1/4 inches with 4 inch depth and eight blades. With 8 conventional fan blades at 45°. So if this is a real Pentz clone, i’d like to see the real world performance fan curve chart, that he suggests himself to review manufacture bragging rights. I personally built everything to Bill’s 16 inch cyclone schematics, but I put in a 17 1/4 inch fan of my own design. Here are my early tests.

97561C0C-31AB-4C2E-A9F1-5D8086610D06.jpeg

[Peter Christensen]

If you go to the page of one of the 4 versions they sell, under the picture and basic description are 3 tabs you can select. The Specifications one will expand to give more dimensions and some data. At the top for System Performance they stay for the 6" intake 1,701 CFM for a baseline static pressure of 2.25" and for the 8" intake 1,935 CFM for the same static pressure. They don't give a fan chart.

Further down it says Blower Assembly 16" steel, backward-inclined impeller. I'm pretty sure it is the same 6 blade impeller shown in the Supporting Products area of the site. http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/supp...-impeller.html

As near as I can tell it is the same as the CV-Max except made of steel and has the same performance. Since it has only been out for a couple weeks I doubt there are too many people with them with the exception of some people like the young lady with the YouTube program (?) to get a comparison from.

[Matt Mattingley]

Thanks Peter. This is a picture of what their specs are. Very damn close to what I have except for Number of blades and diameter. I’m pretty sure if this was Bill Pentz approved, it would include a fan curve chart.
D8C8C793-A330-4E7B-ABD9-B143BBB497A8.jpg

[Matt Mattingley]

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Bill’s design (in my opinion). But Bill pretty much specifies, don’t trust any dust collection manufacture with out a fan curve documentation. How is this bill Pentz approved without fan curve chart?

[Peter Christensen]

Matt Bill has had ClearVue on his website for many years and ClearVue has said they are Pentz approved for just as long without ever posting a fan curve, I think that if they weren’t approved he would have stopped them. However you can always contact Bill and see what he has to say. Doesn’t take anything away from the cyclone though.