WTB 3 wire 4 gage copper "Romex"

[Bill Jobe]

Thanks for all the feedback. I appreciate everyone's input.
Just wanted to add that the unattached shop is less than 3' from the attached garage. Probably doesn't make a difference, but.....
To show you just how confusing this whole thing is, I thought we had purchased everything we needed a year ago. The high priced wire came as a total surprise to me.
If it matters, the vast majority of the wire from the main house panel to the one in the shop will wind from the furnace room on one end of the house, through a (heated) crawlspace, up to the ceiling, out through the attic of the attached garage, across from the center of the of that attic to the wall adjacent to the front wall of the shop, down to the top of the concrete, out through the wall, buried, over to the new shop, then about 6' to the new subpanel.

I'm going to urge him to take a real close look at the codes. Looks like they vary quite a bit from place to place.

[Marc Jeske]

The NEC, not place to place, mandates a sub panel have an isolated neutral, and a bonded to enclosure grounding conductor... FOUR wires going back to the Service panel.

This is for "Life Safety" reasons.

Not just somebody's whim or preference on a Forum.

It is insanely common knowledge... nothing obscure in any way.

Basic Elect 101.

This is nothing weird or odd in any way.. I GUARANTEE you.. if your SIL or whoever says different,or does not clearly understand and know this from day or square one.. get him the H out of there.

Marc

[Darrin Vanden Bosch]

How many amp service are you planning on for your shop? If it's a 100 amp service then 4 gage will not do.

[John K Jordan]

How many amp service are you planning on for your shop? If it's a 100 amp service then 4 gage will not do.

And when calculating the wire size, remember to consider not only the desired amperage but the length of the run and the voltage drop you will tolerate (how much the lights dim when a big motor starts.)

After considering all of those I ended up buying a much larger wire than I first thought I needed for the 250' run to my shop. It was expensive but it not much compared to the effort and material cost to clear the land and build the entire shop (by myself) and fill it with tools and equipment. And it's only done once. In my opinion, wiring is not a good place to skimp and save, especially for power to the building.

[Ronald Blue]

Did you only look online? i recently bought 4/0-4/0-2/0 service entrance cable by the foot at my local Menards. (Quincy Illinois) They don't keep it inside. The full rolls are but they cut it out in the yard. Go in and look. They have a display showing the sizes/types they have. I know Lowes and Home Depot have similar inventories and it's all by the foot. Here is a Menards link to the page with the cable. It is all shown as by the foot.

menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-wire-cable/electrical-service-wire-cable/c-1525874617506.htm

[Marc Jeske]

Good suggestion to check Menards.

Just be aware.. many of those are for "service" use, only 3 conductors total needed for that.. but NOT for the OP's use as a sub panel feeder... where he needs 4 conductors.

Marc

[Frank Pratt]

That reduced neutral service cable is very economical but don't be tempted by the low price. It doesn't have that crucial bonding conductor. I'm only knowledgeable in the Canadian Electrical Code, but it is mostly harmonized with the NEC & as Marc indicated, this is a fundamental life safety issue. You may also run into issues with using a reduced neutral in this situation.

[Marc Jeske]

Even though the reduced neutral, in real life practicality, would be fine for the OP use, it is not acceptable to Code for a shop sub panel.

And even if no inspection, everything should be built to Code, for a variety of reasons.

Marc

[Thomas Crawford]

I just did this for a detached shop.

I ordered this:
https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/...ion-cable.html

I needed about 100' of it, it cost me a couple hundred dollars. Running THWN copper would have been $1000+

I put it in 2.5" conduit even though its rated for direct burial. I got it pulled but should have done 3" conduit to make it easier.

The conduit runs through the slab and into the subpanel just inside the building.

Ground and Neutral are tied together at the main panel at the house.

Ground and Neutral are NOT tied together at the shop subpanel.

The shop has its own TWO ground rods.

Edit to add that I had no inspection, but wanted to do it per latest NEC. The only thing questionable per code is running URD in conduit inside the building, even though its only 3 feet.

[Frank Pratt]

I just did this for a detached shop.

I ordered this:
https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/...ion-cable.html

I needed about 100' of it, it cost me a couple hundred dollars. Running THWN copper would have been $1000+

I put it in 2.5" conduit even though its rated for direct burial. I got it pulled but should have done 3" conduit to make it easier.

The conduit runs through the slab and into the subpanel just inside the building.

Ground and Neutral are tied together at the main panel at the house.

Ground and Neutral are NOT tied together at the shop subpanel.

The shop has its own TWO ground rods.

Edit to add that I had no inspection, but wanted to do it per latest NEC. The only thing questionable per code is running URD in conduit inside the building, even though its only 3 feet.

Does the NEC not prohibit tying the ground & neutral at any point past the service disconnect compartment? If so, then you must not connect that shop feeder cable ground & neutral together at the main panel. And there is the reduced neutral thing. I wonder if it would be acceptable if the breaker were sized to the reduced neutral ampacity? Again, not overly familiar with the NEC.

[Bill Jobe]

Ok, it's decision time for me. I'm sick of how this entire thing has been such a difficult trial now for about a year and a half. That's how long it's taken me to just get this far.
Can I use 2-2-2-4 aluminum for the subpanel? If not what exactly do I need? Can someone tell me the numbers and letters designating the proper wire for this job. I don't want to spend the money for copper 2 gage, but if that's what I have to do I'm willing to pay the price to do this thing right.
I'm in too deep to scrimp on anything. I've either got to get moving on this and make it happen or dump the whole thing.
I'm going to get the inspector in in this tomorrow and just do what it takes.
I really had no idea I was getting into this much money. I've already got almost the price of the shed in extras that I had not anticipated, but I can't turn back now. My slab ran me $2200. I had to bring in 6 cu. Yards of dirt. I've got a fence to redo. I've got a lot if money tied up in a channel drain and the concrete to secure it the length of the shop. I still have to buy insulation, some kind of material for the wall. Soundproofing for the dc. I haven't bought the DC yet and there will be $100s in extras for it. And so on and so on. If I never get to use this shop at least I want to leave behind something someone can be proud of.
Those of you who really know your stuff when it comes to electrical, what exactly do I need here?

I cannot begin to tell you how very hard it has been for me just to get a shed set on a slab. Now it's either #&*# or get off the pot.it took me months just to secure a contractor for the slab and then he did not do the grading he said he would do to relay the brick patio. Before I knew it he had his excavator locked out of that area because when they showed up it they went right to work laying out and staking the ground for the slab with no way to get the excavator through again. My head was buzzing so loud I did not notice that myself. Nothing i could do after they were done but grab a shovel As a result I had to move about another 6 cu. Yards of dirt by hand just to get the patio to drain the way I wanted. Most of that work I did in 90*+ temps. Then when they showed up with the shed I had to suddenly move the 6 cu yds of dirt I had to buy to regrade the area between the fence and house. The Amish told me I needed that much dirt in order to get the shed up on the slab, but they were unsure where they wanted it.
You would not believe how tight it was getting it moved past the garage and fence. It took a crew of 4 and 2 mules tto do the job. I watched very carefully as they slid it by with about an inch clearance of the fence and on the other side about an inch clearance between the roof of the shed and the soffit of the house. Then they got one mule stuck between the shed and fence getting it out.

It has been a nightmare and I am sick to death of the whole thing. Now I stand here knowing full well this thing isn't done taking my money. In the end I will probably have $11 or $12k in it. But I will do it right or I will scrap the whole blankety-blank thing and forget about woodworking.

I'm open to as many suggestions as there are members willing to suggest.

I realize there are probably many spelling and grammar errors in this post but I'm sick of weeding them out. I hope you can understand what I've tried to communicate to you.


Bill

[Julie Moriarty]

Bill, this can easily be resolved by calling your local inspector. If you don't want to do that, go to the Mike Holt website forum. Most of the members there are electricians. Maybe someone there knows your local rules and can guide you through the process.

[Ole Anderson]

I just did this for a detached shop.

I ordered this:
https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/...ion-cable.html

I needed about 100' of it, it cost me a couple hundred dollars. Running THWN copper would have been $1000+

I put it in 2.5" conduit even though its rated for direct burial. I got it pulled but should have done 3" conduit to make it easier.

That looks like an economical solution for a 100 amp service. I presume the #2 is the ground, not the neutral.

[Thomas Crawford]

That looks like an economical solution for a 100 amp service. I presume the #2 is the ground, not the neutral.

Yes, I calculated it could carry 110-120 amps with the derating for conduit. I have a 90 amp breaker on it, which will be plenty for my shop. I don't expect more than 60 amps. #2 is the ground.

[Thomas Crawford]

Does the NEC not prohibit tying the ground & neutral at any point past the service disconnect compartment? If so, then you must not connect that shop feeder cable ground & neutral together at the main panel. And there is the reduced neutral thing. I wonder if it would be acceptable if the breaker were sized to the reduced neutral ampacity? Again, not overly familiar with the NEC.

I can't quote the NEC directly, but in my neighborhood there is a main breaker at the street and a main panel at the house. Neutral and GND tied together at the house (all the grounds and neutrals from the house are on the same ground bus tied to the panel itself), with ground rods at the house. I can't open the thing at the street up, not sure what the setup is there.