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Thread: WTB 3 wire 4 gage copper "Romex"

  1. #31
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    Tom
    The original service to my garage was run in that black poly pipe. It lasted quite awhile, as it was probably put in 1978. It was only about 6"-8" deep, and finally one winter I caught the pipe with the corner of the plow, at the corner of the garage.
    I learned two things that night.
    I had always wondered how they got the service up into the garage. It came up in the middle of the bottom plate. I found out that it had been carefully woven and pressed into the stones and aggregate on the edge of the slab pour, and had been concealed with mortar. It was actually quite clever.
    2nd thing I learned was that the breaker didn't trip, like it should have. It was a little sparkly out there for a few seconds.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  2. #32
    Pretty much all the directional boring we did used black poly pipe - HDPE. Few municipalities had any problem with it.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." - Mark Twain

  3. #33
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    We have one switch in the house that runs to where we used to have a chicken coop, in the early '80's. The yard has been graded since then. That switch is in a kind of out of the way place in the house, but one day when the ground was wet, there was smoke coming out of the ground. I disconnected the wire going out of that switch. That breaker never tripped either.

    Every new plumber I meet, I ask them if they have a bucket under a sink at home. So far, I think it's about 90% that do.

  4. #34
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    I do not think you can have another ground rod in an out building? No idea what that would do to bonding ground and neutral in the subpanel.
    Bill D.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Cutler View Post
    Van

    I think he said that he SIL had a license, so I think it's just a lack of familiarity with the correct equipment nomenclature.

    I saw that and I was trying to be somewhat delicate and the reason I mentioned though I am technically licensed to practice agency and partnership law it isn't what I do and I would not be the guy to call. I can discount the Romex reference because while bothersome I can see where someone might refer to all multi-wire cable in a single covering Romex but the reference to NM-B and the 3 wire to a detached garage might well indicate a lack of knowledge in this specific area. This could all be miscommunication but if the work has to be inspected I would strongly suggest getting some guidance from the local AHJ. It won't be fun if they buy the wrong cable and bury it just to be told it has to be replaced with something different.
    Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.

    Deep thought for the day:

    Your bandsaw weighs more when you leave the spring compressed instead of relieving the tension.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    I do not think you can have another ground rod in an out building? No idea what that would do to bonding ground and neutral in the subpanel.
    Bill D.
    I think it is the opposite, I think each structure is required to have its own grounding electrode system per 250.50. From a logical electrical POV I thought as you did but my AHJ required it on my last two shops and both cited 250.50.
    Of all the laws Brandolini's may be the most universally true.

    Deep thought for the day:

    Your bandsaw weighs more when you leave the spring compressed instead of relieving the tension.

  7. #37
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    Most important thing here is to pull 4 conductors,as others have said... NOT 3.

    You will be feeding a sub panel... the neutral has to be isolated from grounding conductor.

    Marc
    I'm pretty new here, not as as experienced as most. Please don't hesitate to correct me

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    I do not think you can have another ground rod in an out building? No idea what that would do to bonding ground and neutral in the subpanel.
    Bill D.
    Bill
    In Connecticut you do have ground rods, 2, for out buildings, and detached garages.
    Ground is still carried back to the main panel. Neutral is isolated from ground at sub panels, and only bonded at the main service panel.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  9. #39
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    NEC has updated since I wired my shop. It does say extra ground rod for detached shop. It also requires a ground connected to main house ground like it used to. i wonder if two ground rods spaced so far apart may set up stray currents and cause problems. A elevation change might do it as well.
    Bill D

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    NEC has updated since I wired my shop. It does say extra ground rod for detached shop. It also requires a ground connected to main house ground like it used to. i wonder if two ground rods spaced so far apart may set up stray currents and cause problems. A elevation change might do it as well.
    Bill D
    When we were doing cell sites, grounding was crucial. I had numerous conversations with local inspectors trying to convince them what the cell site companies needed was different than what local codes required. Isolation was king. Most allowed variations from the code because what we were doing was pretty new at the time (mid 90s) but some insisted we adhere to time-honored practices.

    The carriers for which we did the electrical installations had meetings anywhere from weekly to monthly. When I reported what the inspectors required, it was most often the electrical engineers who objected. The electrical inspectors almost always won yet I don't remember any time hearing how the grounding required by the those inspectors ever caused a problem.

    In the countless hours I sat with fellow electricians, we've had countless discussions about grounding. In the end, we all pretty much all agreed, grounding is the one factor we will never fully be able to understand or predict. One time I said, "It's a lot like lightning." And that got a lot of nods. The real world and the theoretical world. You have to go with what you know.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." - Mark Twain

  11. #41
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    Not to be rude... Post is interesting.. But PLEASE do NOT add material to confuse an OP that did not even know he needed an isolated neutral, PLUS a separate grounding conductor.

    He has enough on his plate to sort out properly.

    Marc
    I'm pretty new here, not as as experienced as most. Please don't hesitate to correct me

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    NEC has updated since I wired my shop. It does say extra ground rod for detached shop. It also requires a ground connected to main house ground like it used to. i wonder if two ground rods spaced so far apart may set up stray currents and cause problems. A elevation change might do it as well.
    Bill D
    The part I can't wrap my head around is how a detached building with a grounding rod would be a problem, but the house next door wouldn't be (both houses having grounding rods, plus the pole and/or transformer being grounded).
    Jason

    "Don't get stuck on stupid." --Lt. Gen. Russel Honore


  13. #43
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    Regardless of how many ground rods you have in one system, the important thing is that they are all tied together ("bonded"), or you can have all sorts of strange things happen. That's why you need four conductors between the two panels. Yes, code covers this, but I'm just trying to make it clear.
    Last edited by Tom M King; 09-07-2018 at 7:46 AM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    NEC has updated since I wired my shop. It does say extra ground rod for detached shop. It also requires a ground connected to main house ground like it used to. i wonder if two ground rods spaced so far apart may set up stray currents and cause problems. A elevation change might do it as well.
    Bill D
    Bill
    What is being set up here is an equipotential grounding plane. It will actually perform the opposite of setting up stray circulating ground currents. It puts all points at the same reference.

    Marc
    These threads on electrical installations always stray off course a little bit. Which can be both good and bad. As long as the conversation remains polite, it's just like a conversation around the table amongst friends. Th topics will veer off course and come back, and the cycle repeats. For every question asked, there are more that weren't. For every answer given to the OP, there are others that have their own questions, but were reticent to post. It's healthy to stray off course.

    One of the biggest obstacles to overcome with having any electrical work done, by a licensed electrician, is the terminology. The terms and equipment nomenclature for electricians are pretty damned specific, and no one else just uses them in casual conversation. I know that people say it's money, that stops them from hiring a license to do the work, but I actually wonder how much is also attributed to the fact that the person won't even understand the electrician when told what needs to happen. It's kind of vulnerable position for a lot of folks to be in, so they either don't have the work done, or try to do it themselves.

    What the OP wants to do, wire a detached building, is pretty darned routine. He is just not an electrically knowledgable person, so his terminology is not exactly correct. He does however have a SIL that has a license, and he is not going to do the work himself. The SIL is.
    Last edited by Mike Cutler; 09-07-2018 at 8:14 AM.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Roehl View Post
    The part I can't wrap my head around is how a detached building with a grounding rod would be a problem, but the house next door wouldn't be (both houses having grounding rods, plus the pole and/or transformer being grounded).
    Jason
    Many years ago it was normal, and legal, to pull two conductor cable to remote panels. Two hots and ground wire. You can see that there is no provision to carry a neutral conductor back to the service panel. The grounding schemes were also inconsistent. Now, everything is better, as it all referenced back to the main service panel.
    Today the problem comes when the system is remediated and brought up to code. It's expensive, as all new service has to be brought to the remote panel. On new construction it's not such a big issue. On an existing system it can be very difficult. Bringing a farm, originally wired in the 40's, up to code is a huge problem.

    The ground potential in a residential system is not "your" ground per se. It's just ground. And it has to ultimately be referenced to the "pole". No matter where a ground rod is driven, as long as it is carried back to any main service panel, all of those grounds, for each house, will ultimately arrive at the same potential, as referenced to neutral of the transformer.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

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