WTB 3 wire 4 gage copper "Romex"

[Thomas Crawford]

Ok, it's decision time for me. I'm sick of how this entire thing has been such a difficult trial now for about a year and a half. That's how long it's taken me to just get this far.
Can I use 2-2-2-4 aluminum for the subpanel? If not what exactly do I need? Can someone tell me the numbers and letters designating the proper wire for this job. I don't want to spend the money for copper 2 gage, but if that's what I have to do I'm willing to pay the price to do this thing right.
I'm in too deep to scrimp on anything. I've either got to get moving on this and make it happen or dump the whole thing.
I'm going to get the inspector in in this tomorrow and just do what it takes.
I really had no idea I was getting into this much money. I've already got almost the price of the shed in extras that I had not anticipated, but I can't turn back now. My slab ran me $2200. I had to bring in 6 cu. Yards of dirt. I've got a fence to redo. I've got a lot if money tied up in a channel drain and the concrete to secure it the length of the shop. I still have to buy insulation, some kind of material for the wall. Soundproofing for the dc. I haven't bought the DC yet and there will be $100s in extras for it. And so on and so on. If I never get to use this shop at least I want to leave behind something someone can be proud of.
Those of you who really know your stuff when it comes to electrical, what exactly do I need here?

I cannot begin to tell you how very hard it has been for me just to get a shed set on a slab. Now it's either #&*# or get off the pot.it took me months just to secure a contractor for the slab and then he did not do the grading he said he would do to relay the brick patio. Before I knew it he had his excavator locked out of that area because when they showed up it they went right to work laying out and staking the ground for the slab with no way to get the excavator through again. My head was buzzing so loud I did not notice that myself. Nothing i could do after they were done but grab a shovel As a result I had to move about another 6 cu. Yards of dirt by hand just to get the patio to drain the way I wanted. Most of that work I did in 90*+ temps. Then when they showed up with the shed I had to suddenly move the 6 cu yds of dirt I had to buy to regrade the area between the fence and house. The Amish told me I needed that much dirt in order to get the shed up on the slab, but they were unsure where they wanted it.
You would not believe how tight it was getting it moved past the garage and fence. It took a crew of 4 and 2 mules tto do the job. I watched very carefully as they slid it by with about an inch clearance of the fence and on the other side about an inch clearance between the roof of the shed and the soffit of the house. Then they got one mule stuck between the shed and fence getting it out.

It has been a nightmare and I am sick to death of the whole thing. Now I stand here knowing full well this thing isn't done taking my money. In the end I will probably have $11 or $12k in it. But I will do it right or I will scrap the whole blankety-blank thing and forget about woodworking.

I'm open to as many suggestions as there are members willing to suggest.

I realize there are probably many spelling and grammar errors in this post but I'm sick of weeding them out. I hope you can understand what I've tried to communicate to you.


Bill

Hi Bill,

I'm not an electrician. I'm an electrical engineer (semiconductors) so I felt comfortable doing all the electrical work myself on my shop. I studied the NEC a lot when doing my own shop, and my county adopts the latest NEC completely whenever it is updated, so even though I didn't need an inspection the guidelines were clear to me since my house is getting annexed in 2 years and I'd have repercussions if I tried to sell and did it wrong.

What I can tell you for sure is that you can use aluminum, and it is cheaper. You will need heavier gauge aluminum vs. copper for the same amp carrying capacity. The size you need depends on how many amps you want at the subpanel. There are some good online calculators for wire size - the factors are the wire sheathing, distance, whether its in conduit or not, buried or in air, etc.

I hesitate to give you an exact answer because there are a lot of other factors I may not know to take into account. To point you in the right direction I would need the following:

1 - how many amps do you want in the shop?
2 - Is your main panel inside or outside your home?
3 - where are you running the wire? Underground, in conduit, anything through your house?
4 - how many feet of wire do you need to make the connection panel to panel?
5 - where is the subpanel located? In or out of the shop?

[Mike Cutler]

Just wanted to add that the unattached shop is less than 3' from the attached garage. Probably doesn't make a difference, but.....

It makes a big difference. Your initial post seemed to indicate that you needed to run ~100' exterior to any building.


If it matters, the vast majority of the wire from the main house panel to the one in the shop will wind from the furnace room on one end of the house, through a (heated) crawlspace, up to the ceiling, out through the attic of the attached garage.

Is the main service panel in this furnace room?

Across from the center of the of that attic, to the wall adjacent to the front wall of the shop. (I don't understand this sentence???)

Are you outside of a building here?

Down to the top of the concrete, out through the wall, buried, over to the new shop, then about 6' to the new subpanel.

How much of this run is outside a building.

I'm going to urge him to take a real close look at the codes. Looks like they vary quite a bit from place to place.

They don't vary that much. Some locations have other BOCA, Building Occupancy Codes of America, that can have an effect on how the electrical has to be performed. For example the earthquake codes in California may require some additional, or more restrictive, requirements for the installations than say Minnesota.
Other areas, such as Boston, may grant some variances, and exceptions, if the work would damage, or require the significant alteration, of a historic home to accomplish.
In some places, not all, if you are strictly limited to a repair, and are not modifying what has already been installed and inspected at a previous date, then you can repair to the initial inspection criteria. This is rapidly going away though.

Bill
Some basics;
Ground is not a conductor. It is not referred to as a conductor, nor is it designated as a conductor. Hots and Neutrals, Black, Red and White, are conductors. They're not wires, they're conductors.

Romex is a trade designation for Non metallic sheathed cable. NM-B is the cable wiring you see exposed inside your house. Romex can be installed in a house everywhere except outside and underground. Romex is ordinarily stapled, or clipped, along a run. Romex can be installed in conduit, not underground, but it is very difficult to pull it through conduit, so most folks will run THHN, a stranded copper conductor, or THWN a stranded copper conductor rated for Wet environments. Thinks of the "H" in THHN as standing for "house",and the "W" in THWN as standing for Wet.
All of the wiring you need to install inside a structure can be Romex. From your post, it would be everything from the service panel to the point that it goes outside the attached garage.
Any wiring that needs to be buried has to rated for either direct burial, or a wet environment. A conduit buried in the ground is considered a wet environment and any wires, or cables, that pass through that conduit have to be rated for a wet environment. Direct burial type cabling is also not normally run through conduit in a residence. It is a pain on the butt to get it through and making the 90 degree turns in the LB boxes can be difficult. "Generally" the conductors are pulled through the conduit after it is installed, as there are a few inspections that have to made to the conduit. Burial depth, identification, riser lengths, LB's, passes through exterior walls and the required conduit sealing, etc.

In your plan, it is important to identify just how much wiring is exposed to the elements. It seems as if you're indicating that it may be as little as 3' in a conduit located above ground. and section ~6' buried underground. Is this correct? If so, this is why your SIL is saying Romex, because it seems as if the significant amount of your wiring is interior to structures. In the sections that are exterior, the wiring will transition to the approved material, and then back to Romex,once inside.

[Bill Jobe]

It's done and inspected. Passed with flying colors.
He was able to buy some 4 wire cables wrapped in insulation together. (And, yes, the dealer who supplies to contractors referred to it as 3 strand Romex. When I pointed out it had 4 wires he told me that it was just common language).
Had to buy a minimum of 125', but.....

I greatly appreciate your ideas, especially about involving the inspector from the start. He was very helpful and easy to work with.
It's buried almost 2' deep in pvc electrical conduit from the garage about 3' to the shop and an 8' grounding rod.

Took my sil a while to get up to speed on residential. He only did it for a short while before going into a commercial apprinteship. Been doing commercial for about 15 years.

My shop is small and machines few, so I did not run 100amp.
I think it's 50amp.

My sil just said it would handle everything I have and then some. And with limited space and interest in other types of woodworking it's unlikely I will go bigger.
If I do, I can only run one machine at a time, anyway.

[Van Huskey]

It's done and inspected. Passed with flying colors.
He was able to buy some 4 wire cables wrapped in insulation together. (And, yes, the dealer who supplies to contractors referred to it as 3 strand Romex. When I pointed out it had 4 wires he told me that it was just common language).

Glad you are on your way to burning electrons!

Yes, Romex is normally referred to by the number of conductors in the cable such as 12/2 Romex will have 3 wires but only two are "conductors" with the third being the ground. Romex is often used when talking about any multi-wire cable even if it is strictly not NM-B cable plus Romex is a trade name that gets used generically like Q-Tips. Construction of all kinds is awash in colloquial and often technically inaccurate terms. It is the reason I often feel like I am speaking a different language when I go into a supply house. What is "book correct" or normal use where I grew up may mean something completely different in another area.