Squares are ....square

[Mike Cutler]

I don't need my slider or my WP T-Square or my Starret combo square (or, or, or...), but they make me happy. Nobody else needs to understand why since it's my money. I'm not even sure I understand why.
To each his own, live and let live, everyone marches to their own drummer, etc.

Brian
I think it's because we appreciate that someone, or a company, is more involved with manufacturing a quality product, than the "race to the bottom". It's the same with my Lie-Neilsen planes and chisels. The Stanley's and Miller Fall's tools I've picked up through the years will do exactly the same thing, but I like using the LN's. It's rewarding to have a tool that a company cared about making.
Let's face it, at the end of the day, with the exception of the people on the forum that make their living from wood working, we would be better off economically to have gone to IKEA, than to have made our last project ourselves.
But we don't.

[John Sincerbeaux]

When I buy tool and machines, I do so to increase my accuracy, speed, and utility. The four machine upgrades for me have been a slider, a widebelt, an oscillating edge sander, and planer. Except for the widebelt, each machine is either a Martin or Kundig. Crazy expensive machines and in the same discussion of BMW’s, Range Rover, Patek Phillepe, but for me, the level of accuracy, efficiency, and utility these machines bring is night and day. And certainly, like the feel of a LN handplane, the “tactile” experience is real.
After reading this thread, ironically, I realized all my squares are probably way below what most would consider high-end. And I know a top of the line, best in the world square would not yield the same monster leaps in my work and experience that other tools/machines have brought.

[Chris Fournier]

It's hard for me to not buy Starrett tools. My neighbors and relatives work there. This ad was in the local newspaper today. I t means a lot. Go look around Athol on Google Street, and you can see how important this is to the local economy. The are also great to use.

As a Canadian I can tell you that I have your back! I buy North American every chance I get, your neighbours are my neighbours. And not just when it comes to Starrett. Never shed a tear for spending money on high quality goods. I have cursed my stupidity for cheaping out. But that was a loooong time ago. Buy once cry once and spend your money as close to where you live as possible!

[Patrick Walsh]

I personally loose my freaking mind when my square is not square and or a machine is not setup square and I am getting out of square cuts.

I make boxes all day for a living and inevitably many end up slightly out of square despite my best efforts. Well my best efforts can get a perfectly square result but the boss can’t afford to pay for perfectly square every time when a 64th out is just fine.

There are times and quite often time when square has to be square. There are the majority of times when reliably square just makes life way easier and thus productivity goes up.

Plus there is just the satisfaction of perfectly square. Maybe it’s not so much the satisfaction of perfectly square as much as it’s the disappointment and aggravation of out of square. Comes down to pride I suppose.

I have many squares all the above mentioned. My Sterret was out right out of the box to the tune of 32nd over 12”. My mini Sterret is perfectly square and a dream of a tool. My empire was square but the locking mechanism makes it the most aggravating piece of crap in the world to use. My red square is perfectly square and a joy to use due to the ledge design and beef and heft allowing to easily stand it up in or on a work piece. My Chris vesper square is perfectly square well designed and just a plain old joy to use.

I use my tools 60-70 hrs a week most years 52 weeks a year. All I really do is work so it’s nice to work with nice tools.

[Van Huskey]

each machine is either a Martin or Kundig. Crazy expensive machines and in the same discussion of BMW’s, Range Rover, Patek Phillepe,

While Patek fits the analogy to Martin with cars it should be Ferrari, if being country specific Lange & Sohne and Porsche's GT2 cars and above.

I spent quite a bit of time drooling on the Martin's at IWF, wonder how much they had to knock off the price for the rust. There is no machine I lust for more than a Martin T27 FleX.


It seems many and I am guessing most of us appreciate "quality" squares whether or not the much cheaper ones are just as close to square.

[Ellen Benkin]

I love the scientific method!

[John Goodin]

William,
I guess you are not going shell out $640 for the new red "ultimate doweling jig." https://www.woodpeck.com/ultimate-doweling-jig.html
Looks like a pain to use and not much cheaper than a Domino.

[lowell holmes]

I say you need at least one of each kind, I do and I bet others do also.

[David Utterback]

I only bought the red squares because previously purchased fixed squares from woodworking shops were not square in comparison with each other. All but one failed the scribe and flip test. In the end, the red squares allowed me to find that the only square that was nearly true was a 4" try square which is great for machine tuning but not for marking lumber. All of the others of greater length were out including several that were advertised as square within 0.001" per inch of length.

That being said, I have several combination squares that are dead-on. And as others have noted, they are adjustable.

[Carlos Alvarez]

The physical usability of Big Red is also a factor for me. I'm faster and more confident when I hold them. They have features to make them more reliable without great effort. The end result makes me happy. Using them makes me happy. Also the better stuff stays square while light-duty ones go off over time from being dropped or whatever.

[Rick McQuay]

When I was younger and had less disposable income I bought speed squares, Craftsman squares, Stanley squares; they were okay most of the time, sometimes dead on and sometimes not. Then I bought a vintage Lufkin square and my eyes were opened. It was dead nutz and it just ... worked, every time. I didn't have to check it before every use to see if it was square. It locked up tight. The measurements were accurate. Then I scored some deals on Starrett and forget it, I never looked back. They are square every day, every time, and they bring me joy because I do not have to worry about them and they feel good in the hand. I've also bought some Brown & Sharpe, they are 'almost' as good as Starrett. My favorite is a 24" B&S, love that thing. People say a 12" is the most useful size square but for me, I love that 24".

[Eduardo Fenili]

Im rather new to woodworking (a few years) but I would say name brand domestic tools bought new being really expensive is the norm and not the exception.

I find "big red" tools to be on the higher end for cost definitely but great to use and also great quality even if the resulting woodwork could be achieved with a piece of plastic. I've "wasted" money on plenty of woodworking tools if you think finding the cheapest version that gets the job done is the bar that is set....and maybe it is for many.

As a hobbyist maker I woodwork because it makes me happy and is an amszing way to enjoy a a day....and sometimes using fancy tools or whatever from any company makes the process and experience that much better.

I suppose you can hate their marketing strategy and prices but im not sure I see any bad practice going on. They seem no different than any other company in any other category these days. They are actually very good at it from what I can see and working in that industry.

Seems odd to hate them over these things

[Brian Holcombe]

I’m glad to have many choices that are very good. I haven’t bought a tool from the big box stores in a very long time, so I’m pretty unaware of their pricing but the pricing of brands such as woodpeckers, matsui, vesper, starrett and mitutoyo have been pretty good, given the quality provided.

Its hard to always buy a high quality thing, but when you do it’s nice that they’re reliable.

[Alex Burkhardt]

I'm all for discussing and debating a tool or brands inherent "value", but it's a bit disheartening when the conversation begins with "disgust" over all the "sell-outs" on the internet. I'll never understand why people get bent out of shape when individuals who create free content and publish it on the internet for the world to consume at their leisure are criticized for taking money, tools, sponsorship, etc. Many of them use those things to fuel their brands, pay their mortgages, and feed their families. Just a thought ...

Second, the final line relegating the tools to all "hype" is missing the point. Hype is the latest diet fad, or the next "superfood" that you must eat. Eventually we learn more, and discover it's not quite as rosy as we had originally thought, and we move on to the next. Red squares will still be good squares when we're long gone, and someone is pillaging our shops in preparation for the estate sale. They're well-made in the US, and serve their purpose. WP isn't claiming their competitors products aren't square, or don't work -- they just know how much we, as a community, geek out on the idea that perfectly flat, square, and smooth = quality. So they made something that's pretty darn square. But knowing that B&S, Starrett, and others also exist, the added some value by making it feel nice in the hand, letting it sit well on the edge of a board, and anodized it an eye-catching color. For some, that's cool, and worth the price tag. Don't fault the company for knowing their market. A market who, if i'm guessing, may just already own the box store square, and the Starrett, too!

[Patrick Walsh]

So today I did something that made me think about this thread.

What seems would be a very simple task and I guess is is not so simple if everything is not perfectly square.

I was very very happy to quality tools I couple spend on being square when setting up my machines to both mill up my stock to make the moulding used to make the frame. Then when it came time to make my cuts man was it nice to have a square I knew did not lie to me in the slightest.

Thank you Chris’s Vesper. And no he has never given me anything for free and I love giving him my money!

Forgive the first pic it’s all I have and nothing more than a point of reference.

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