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The place that I volunteer at (https://redfordtheatre.com) the people that maintain the pipe organ use hot hide glue. Because in 90 years from now someone might have to fix it again!
An instance is some of the actuators are hinged wooden blocks with leather bellows. They have to be renewed every couple of decades or so.
-Tom
Contributor
Can't speak for anyone else but having read John's description I now really want to see the insides of one of these bellows driven pianos / organs.
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Better yet, pick up an old one that doesn't work and rebuild it! I spent a month rebuilding mine. This was a few decades ago and it still works like new. BTW, the pump organs are trivial inside - go for a player piano!Originally Posted by Mark Gibney
Member
Open times can be extended by adding salt or urea, yah? Still, you are right. With hide glue, a glue up is a planned event like finishing.
Member
I used Titebond hide glue to repair my fiddle about 20 years ago. Steamed the back off, fixed a crack and glued it back on. I think it could be steamed off again because I used it.
I've since built 3 mandolins using nothing but hide glue crystals and a Rival water pot. I learned from some violin making videos glue up the rim and the top or back and let dry. Then I put the back onto the rim set with lots of clamps. Remove one clamp and let in some steam and reclamp. I had all the time in the world to get it done.
One thing about hide glue I have read is that you absolutely need the steam to undo the joint. Heat alone will not do it.
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I have become a fan of hot hide glue. I first used it when I had some old veneer to repair and I have not looked back. Any glue up and clamping needs to be thought out in advance and tested before glue is applied. I have also taken to keeping a heat gun and spray bottle of water around when doing complex joints in case I need to get a little give while clamping up. Hide glue sets up in a two stage process and the first one involves the cooling of the the glue. It does cool fast and it will hold, but the hold is not very strong until it sets up by drying out over a day or so. A little heat carefully reapplied while can eliminate most of the fast set up issues. I still use PVC glues when I want a rub joint that will never be disassembled.
Member
I tried becoming a quarterback. I took my placed behind the center and took the snap and heaved the ball down the field. I found the following problems:
1. The pass was intercepted by some cornerback dude who ran it in for a touchdown by the other team.
2. Two - count 'em, two - defensive ends hit me just as I released the ball; I ended up with a broken collar bone and two cracked ribs. They claim I had a concussion, too, but I don't remember that.
3. Since it was a try-out, I didn't get paid.
I've found a new level of respect for Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers and even Blake Bortles. I'll stick to something I know.
No, I tried football and I'll stick to racing sailboats.
Jim
Last edited by James Waldron; 08-24-2018 at 5:21 PM.
Fair winds and following seas,
Jim Waldron
Member
Hide glue squeezout will not affect your finish like a PVA glue will.
Member
I got a chuckle out of Mike and Jim's posts. I was thinking if you tried a violin for a day, it might not sound as good as the modern U tube.
I wrote this about the double iron plane on another forum in 2007, but it could just as easily been turned around:
If the idea of learning to use hot hide glue turns you off, the double iron is not for you. It takes a fair amount of practice to get a good feel for it. I can say that the benefits of learning are well worth the effort and I would not want to be without it.
If you want to learn this stuff it is very helpful to have someone to watch who has some facility with the stuff. Not everything that is worthwhile can be learned from an instruction book and done easily the first time. We do the craft a disservice when we limit ourselves to skills that can be learned in a short time. Many of today's craft teachers are engaged in dumbing down techniques to eliminate traditional skills which are "almost imposssible" to learn.
With hide glue you want to prepare everything, clamps, glue blocks and such and to rehearse (at least mentally) so that you are not hunting a prop while the glue is cooling. The upshot is that you learn to work in a very disciplined manner.
Member
Hi Warren - do you have any tips for carcase dovetail glue ups? I find hot hide glue fine for a regular mortise and tenon joint, but for something like a carcase side, where there are a bunch of dovetails to spread glue on, the glue on the first few pins/tails sets by the time I'm putting the case together. Any practical shop tips for something such as this that doesn't require assistance from someone else?
Contributor
Warren, would you add urea or salt to the mix for joinery?
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
Member
I have never used additives in hide glue.
For a large carcass, label matching corners so that you don't get mixed up. Use the same labeling convention every time.
Lay the tail board on the bench with corner 1 on the left and 2 on the right. Put pin board corner 1 upright in vise. Apply glue to these pins and the tails on corner i and then seat these together, so the pin board is straight up. Then do the same for corner 2, so both corners are together and both pin boards are straight up.
For a big carcass I like to put the glue pot right on the tail board 1-2 and lay the other tail board on the bench also. Then apply glue to pins at corners 3&4 and the other tail board and assemble.
It is important to get this all together quickly, but once together you still have some time to squeeze tight with clamps if you want and to check the diagonals for square. The clamps don't need to be on for more than a few seconds.
I have done hundreds of these; it doesn't seem hard in hindsight, but when I had small children one of them sometimes helped spread glue. I suppose you could contrive a way to put corner 3 together and leave corner 4 apart enough to get glue on in a separated step rather than having to do the last two corners at once.
Contributor
Thanks Warren, appreciate the insights.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
Member
To confess, I'm too old to race sailboats any more. But I couldn't resist jerking Mike's chain. I hope he has a sense of humor - or at least enough tolerance to indulge an old fart.
I don't use urea very often and I've never used salt. I often do cheat and heat the parts before the glue-up; a heat gun is one of the few tailed tools I use. It works nicely and helps a lot with big joints, e.g. a carcass glue-up. Making sure the glue pot is up to temp is also very important. If you rush in and try a glue-up before it's fully up to temp or let it cool off before you use it, it's not going to be fun. (To tell the truth, I don't actually build a lot of furniture any more and I've long since left yacht joinery behind. I occasionally build small boats these days and I use more epoxy than any other adhesive. I suspect my glue pot is full of dust and shavings these days - wherever it's been stashed.)
I'm with Warren on planning and preparation. His carcass procedure is just plain sensible whatever adhesive you use and doubly so with hot hide glue. I've found that you can't walk into the shop and slap a joint together and rely on it to come out well. And for folks with short shop hours, it can be a problem, as Mike said. And it does go bad if you hold it too long. Mike is right about that too, so don't make up much more than you will use in your session, with a small excess for a reserve. But once you've got a handle on its use, you'll learn to appreciate it and maybe even grow to prefer it.
Last edited by James Waldron; 08-24-2018 at 11:21 PM.
Fair winds and following seas,
Jim Waldron
Contributor
REversability is its biggest plus in my view
Jerry
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