Hide Glue?

[Luke Dupont]

Yesterday, I was in Tokyu Hands, and saw something I didn't expect to see:

Hide glue! This hide glue was made by Tite-bond, and in liquid form. I suppose it doesn't spoil in an airtight container, or they use some preservatives. In any case, curiosity got the better of me, and I bought some. I enjoy learning about all things Historical, so I figured it would be a good chance for me to learn about this all-important adhesive.

Do any of you used hide glue? How prone really is it to coming apart with humidity? Any advantages?

I think I'll use it myself -- on my own projects which I can easily reglue and repair if need-be, and see how it works. Reversibility seems like a nice aspect, as there have been occasions where I wanted to be able to unglue things if need-be. Also curious if it's easier to clean-up after than PVA (which is quite difficult to remove from corners and the like).

[Warren Mickley]

I was taught to use hide glue in 1966. The man who taught me was part of a family that has made musical instruments since at least 1644. I recommend learning to use it for joinery so that your work can be easily taken apart for repair. The use of yellow glue can triple the cost of repairing a piece of furniture.

A Winterthur study showed that liquid hide glue weakened when the humidity reached 80 or 90%. They concluded that that was acceptable since in a museum setting humidity is controlled. Hot hide glue does not have a problem with humidity. Liquid hide glue also has a shelf life, maybe a year or somewhat less. After a while it gets kind of rubbery. Hide glue does not have shelf life problems either.

Liquid hide glue was designed for those who cannot learn to use hot hide glue. They want something that could be applied like the glues they were familiar with. The feature that people have trouble with is the relatively quick setting time for hide glue. However this is also a great advantage; clamping times and waiting times are much shorter.

[Paul Bent]

I love hot hide glue. Liquid hide not so much. Hot hide = crockpot, thermometer and cheap mason jar and a big a$$ brush to quickly apply it... Easy to use, smear it on, assemble joint, scrape excess off. Easy to clean up. And easy to take apart when not paying attention. Very slick when initially going together which is helpful on tight joints but can be a pain on glue ups if you aren't paying attention when clamping. Think you might need a glue block somewhere. Rub one on ahead of time and pop it off when done. Clean any glue that remains with water. Easy peasy. Life is good for me when I use it provided I have a clamping strategy, but that applies to all glue use.. Liquid hide is more similar to working with yellow/white glues in my book.

[Stan Calow]

Its pretty available here, even in basic hardware stores. I use the liquid HG frequently. Having read several articles in woodworking magazines over the years testing strength of glues and comparing pros and cons, I was convinced it holds its own for most indoor projects. Its not that sensitive to heat and humidity as you seem to think. I just try to buy the smallest bottle to last just long enough for each project.

[Luke Dupont]

I was taught to use hide glue in 1966. The man who taught me was part of a family that has made musical instruments since at least 1644. I recommend learning to use it for joinery so that your work can be easily taken apart for repair. The use of yellow glue can triple the cost of repairing a piece of furniture.

A Winterthur study showed that liquid hide glue weakened when the humidity reached 80 or 90%. They concluded that that was acceptable since in a museum setting humidity is controlled. Hot hide glue does not have a problem with humidity. Liquid hide glue also has a shelf life, maybe a year or somewhat less. After a while it gets kind of rubbery. Hide glue does not have shelf life problems either.

Liquid hide glue was designed for those who cannot learn to use hot hide glue. They want something that could be applied like the glues they were familiar with. The feature that people have trouble with is the relatively quick setting time for hide glue. However this is also a great advantage; clamping times and waiting times are much shorter.

Ah, interesting! I didn't know it set faster than PVA / Yellow wood glue. Really good point on repairs, too - I can't imagine how I would take apart joinery glued together with PVA.

If I squeeze out some of the liquid hide glue, let it dry out, and make it up on the stove fresh, will it act like traditional hide glue, or still be different to work with?

I guess I'll use what I have for now, and perhaps look into making or buying traditional hide glue next time.

[Luke Dupont]

I love hot hide glue. Liquid hide not so much. Hot hide = crockpot, thermometer and cheap mason jar and a big a$$ brush to quickly apply it... Easy to use, smear it on, assemble joint, scrape excess off. Easy to clean up. And easy to take apart when not paying attention. Very slick when initially going together which is helpful on tight joints but can be a pain on glue ups if you aren't paying attention when clamping. Think you might need a glue block somewhere. Rub one on ahead of time and pop it off when done. Clean any glue that remains with water. Easy peasy. Life is good for me when I use it provided I have a clamping strategy, but that applies to all glue use.. Liquid hide is more similar to working with yellow/white glues in my book.

You put the hide glue in the crockpot? Or in the mason jar which you then put in the crockpot?
I'm assuming it gets caked into whatever container I heat it in, meaning I should have a dedicated glue pot -- preferably one that can sit on a stove.

[John K Jordan]

You put the hide glue in the crockpot? Or in the mason jar which you then put in the crockpot?
I'm assuming it gets caked into whatever container I heat it in, meaning I should have a dedicated glue pot -- preferably one that can sit on a stove.

I heat hide glue on a little hotplate. I put the glue in a short jar set in a small saucepan with water. I wouldn't use anything I wanted to keep clean. A thermometer is good - don't get it too hot.

I started using hide glue when rebuilding an old player piano. If it hadn't originally been put together with hide glue I would have never gotten it without destroying things. My player-piano mentor told me to be nice to the next guy who rebuilds it!

JKJ

[Brian Holcombe]

Warren, thanks for posting your experience on hot hide. I may be moving that direction as I find liquid hide to be frustrating at times, the setting time is very long with liquid hide which is occasionally handy but mainly just adds to the clamping time required. I end up avoiding it because it disturbs the workflow. I think I will start using hot hide soon.

[James Waldron]

Another virtue of hot hide glue is the "rubbed joint" wherein glue is applied to two surfaces to be joined and the pieces are put together with a sliding, rubbing action into position. The glue will tack up and the joint will seize in place. While it needs additional drying time to be really secure, it typically won't need clamping to make a fine bond. If additional handling is going to occur right away, clamping is generally prudent to avoid over-stressing the rubbed joint

[Mark Gibney]

I used liquid hide glue for the first time last night, and I like the workability.

I was gluing legs to stool seats - round thru tenons, wedged.
The yellow glue was gripping so fast it was difficult to get to slots on the end of tenons into alignment in time.
With the hide glue I had more time to align the joint. It was similar to using slow setting epoxy, but with easier clean up.

[Paul Bent]

One other nice thing about hot hide glue is that as it dries it pulls the joint tighter. This is where rubbed joints shine.

[Brian Holcombe]

Yellow glue can seize up a joint, especially when it is getting thicker (as it ages a few months). I had some chair joints fitted perfectly and had one seize up on me 1/32” from closing. I stopped using yellow glue after that for critical work left indoors other than plain glue-ups. Not worth the risk on anything designed with a lot of glue surface.

[Mike Henderson]

I tried hot hide glue. Now I understand why most woodworkers moved away from it once modern glues became available. I found the following problems:

1. You can't just go out in the shop and glue something. It takes a while for the glue to get hot. With modern glues, you go to the shop and do your glue up immediately. This is especially an advantage when you just have some small glue up to do.
2. The glue goes bad after a while (once it it made up from the glue crystals). If you haven't been in the shop for a while, you'll probably have to start from glue crystals.
3. Gluing a complex piece is almost impossible. The glue cools and it won't hold. For example, I tried to glue up some dovetails. To do that, you have to put glue on the tails and pins. Try as I might, I could not apply the glue fast enough that it was still soft by the time I put the joint together. I suspect our ancestors must have heated the wood in some manner and had multiple people working on a glue up to get a complex piece glued up. The open time of modern glues is waaaay longer.

People say that reversibility is an advantage of hot glue but I've not encountered a situation yet where I needed to take a joint apart. I've repaired a lot of chairs that were glued with modern glues and I never felt that it would have been easier if hide glue was used. The way a chair fails, the wood breaks loose (the glue doesn't fail) so you have to do some joinery fixes, and not just re-glue the joint (if you want to do a good, long lasting repair).

No, I tried hot hide glue and I'll stick with the modern glues.

Mike

[Julie Moriarty]

Do any of you used hide glue? How prone really is it to coming apart with humidity? Any advantages?

I use hot hide glue occasionally. I mix it myself. I have 192 gram strength and 315 gram strength. It's great for jobs that require fast cure. I've tried to remove parts glued together with hide glue and it wasn't nearly as easy as I have read. But there is a learning curve to using it. I love it but will admit the fact you have to mix it and wait for it to heat up is sometimes a deterrent to using it.

I have never used hide glue from a bottle but I hear it has different properties than the stuff you mix.

[John K Jordan]

People say that reversibility is an advantage of hot glue but I've not encountered a situation yet where I needed to take a joint apart.

The player piano rebuilding is the one place I know of where "ungluing" is very helpful. There were a bunch of parts such as bellows made of thin wood that I took apart by heating through the wood with an old clothes iron. The glue softened and the joint came apart. The bellows cloth was held on by hide glue too so I could very easily remove it with heat and prep the wood for the new cloth. If I remember correctly, there were over 75 bellows in the piano that had to have the cloth replaced, three different weights of cloth.

We sometimes think we are technically clever today - it's sobering to see the complex engineering that went into a foot-powered buffered-energy vacuum-driven mechanical system primarily made of wood and cloth and leather capable of positioning a strip of paper precisely over a sensor array while dynamically compensating for size variations, moving the paper at a regulated speed over the sensors, and precisely triggering sensitive double-acting valves to simultaneously strike multiple piano hammers, sometimes at high repetition rates. (okay, that's a mouthful) The mechanism is lubricated with graphite and typically works reliably for decades with no maintenance!

JKJ