Dye & wipe vs spray sealer

[Phil Mueller]

I’ve been working on a deep red finish for a mahogany project. Been following a finish schedule I found on YouTube. The schedule called for a couple applications of deep red oil dye (Behlen premix) followed by a shellac seal coat, then dark brown oil grain filler, then more coats of shellac prior to final top coat.

I knew to be careful when wiping on the shellac, but after trying wiping vs spray, it was clear how much dye wiping removed. The top board is sprayed...the bottom wiped. Just an FYI, I guess, from this recent experiment.

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[Jim Becker]

When you have the ability to spray the seal coat of shellac, you do indeed take "wipe off of the dye" out of the picture. That said, if the oil dye is wiping off with your sealer...it probably wasn't cured enough since the alcohol in the shellac isn't a solvent for "oil" products generally.

[Phil Mueller]

I had that same thought, Jim...why is shellac removing the dye. Most of what I’ve read says that dye will dry quickly...about 20 mins or so. Maybe needed more time, as you say.

[Prashun Patel]

The "oil based" dye may be mildly soluble in ethanol. A dye usually doesn't have any binder to seal it in, so a topcoat with a compatible solvent can partially dissolve and lift it. Does Behlen's contain binder?

I have found that using a WATER-based dye (like Transfast) will achieve the same color, and does not lift when wiped over with shellac. This is counter to normal experience, where ethanol and water can dissolve each other to an extent. The exception appears to be waterbased, powder dyes; they HATE ethanol, and hence make them a good choice under shellac.

That being said, spraying is best. In fact, if you have the ability to spray an ethanol-compatible dye, You can really sneak up on colors in a controlled, fast-drying way.

[John TenEyck]

I had a similar experience with shellac picking up oil based stain and making a muddy mess. I then learned that if I let it dry for 2 or 3 days I could brush on the shellac w/o problems.

John

[Steve Schoene]

The Behlen pre-mix dye is Solar Lux, which isn't really an oil based dye. It does have a lot of acetone solvent, but it also has ethanol among it's solvents. As with most true dyes, it doesn't contain any binder--it will always redissolve in its original solvent.

I agree with Prashun that a water soluble powdered dye, TransFast or any of the multitude of Lockwood dye colors. I don't worry about the grain raising of water based dye. After the first coat or two of topcoat any grain nibs can be easily removed with fine sanding.