Justifying A Major Tool Purchase

[Bill McNiel]

I think it is time for my nap.

[Chris Parks]

I bought an A3-31 after following the first part of this thread, it's supposed to arrive tomorrow.

I've spoken with the Felder sales rep and he was quite concerned about the comments in this thread and those over on the Felder Owner's group regarding the tables and general setup.

He said they are in the process of looking into producing videos that go over the setup and adjustment of these machines, so we'll see.

Meanwhile, even prior to receiving my machine, he's been sending me all the available manuals in pdf format.

Call me a cynic but if Felder were so concerned by this thread they would have taken steps to join in or at least contacted Julie and offer assistance to rectify the problem. Secondly it seems they have had some problems in the past and have produced technical docs to help with those problems so why haven't they made them known to all new machine owners. If it was me that information would be part of buying the machine and I would have appointed one single person to deal with any questions.

[Mike Kreinhop]

I am not going to defend Felder, but part of the problem with the lack of documentation might be related to the culture. I've been stationed in Germany for 21 years, and I see huge differences in how European businesses approach customer support, as compared to how we do it in the States. For example, the consumer (AKA mere mortal) is generally not expected to manage difficult tasks with complex machinery such as woodworking equipment or automobiles. The "specialist" performs these tasks, so there is no reason to provide detailed documents, engineering drawings, or Haynes manuals for the consumer. When I bought my Minimax SC2, I was strongly discouraged from even thinking about setting it up myself or making adjustments. Fortunately, the commissioning was included in the price of the saw so I didn't worry about it. I know of two cabinet shops in my small town, and the owners do not perform their own equipment maintenance, including blade changes on the jointers and planers.

When we bought our house, the manual for the heating system controls was missing. I called the company that made and installed the controller and asked for a manual so I could change the language on the display from German to English and adjust the set points of the heating. The first question was "why did I want to change any of the settings?" The proposed solution from the service manager was to make an appointment so a technician could come to my house and change the settings for me. I eventually found a PDF of the user's manual on the Internet, so I didn't bother with the appointment.

Two weeks ago I took delivery of my new Ford Ranger Wildtrak. My model has the extended cab, not the 4-door, so the rear seats are removable pads that cover the storage areas and will also serve as floatation devices in the event of a water landing. Neither of the seat pads would secure properly in the latches, so the dealer had to order a pair of new pads. The pads arrived yesterday, but I have to drive back to the dealer (two hours each way) so the mechanic can install them. The dealer will not mail them to me so I can install them because I am not qualified to perform this task (the service manager's words).

I have hundreds of similar examples, but the trend here is the consumer is not expected (maybe even discouraged) to perform maintenance or setup tasks on complex equipment. It would be nice if Felder USA served as an information and culture bridge and freely provided technical information. Whether or not Felder pays attention to these threads is another matter. When Marius Hornberger made a video to identify a design flaw and his solution with the Hammer K3, Felder took note and incorporated his design as an option for the K3.

[Chris Parks]

I am not going to defend Felder, but part of the problem with the lack of documentation might be related to the culture. I've been stationed in Germany for 21 years, and I see huge differences in how European businesses approach customer support, as compared to how we do it in the States. For example, the consumer (AKA mere mortal) is generally not expected to manage difficult tasks with complex machinery such as woodworking equipment or automobiles. The "specialist" performs these tasks, so there is no reason to provide detailed documents, engineering drawings, or Haynes manuals for the consumer. When I bought my Minimax SC2, I was strongly discouraged from even thinking about setting it up myself or making adjustments. Fortunately, the commissioning was included in the price of the saw so I didn't worry about it. I know of two cabinet shops in my small town, and the owners do not perform their own equipment maintenance, including blade changes on the jointers and planers.

When we bought our house, the manual for the heating system controls was missing. I called the company that made and installed the controller and asked for a manual so I could change the language on the display from German to English and adjust the set points of the heating. The first question was "why did I want to change any of the settings?" The proposed solution from the service manager was to make an appointment so a technician could come to my house and change the settings for me. I eventually found a PDF of the user's manual on the Internet, so I didn't bother with the appointment.

Two weeks ago I took delivery of my new Ford Ranger Wildtrak. My model has the extended cab, not the 4-door, so the rear seats are removable pads that cover the storage areas and will also serve as floatation devices in the event of a water landing. Neither of the seat pads would secure properly in the latches, so the dealer had to order a pair of new pads. The pads arrived yesterday, but I have to drive back to the dealer (two hours each way) so the mechanic can install them. The dealer will not mail them to me so I can install them because I am not qualified to perform this task (the service manager's words).

I have hundreds of similar examples, but the trend here is the consumer is not expected (maybe even discouraged) to perform maintenance or setup tasks on complex equipment. It would be nice if Felder USA served as an information and culture bridge and freely provided technical information. Whether or not Felder pays attention to these threads is another matter. When Marius Hornberger made a video to identify a design flaw and his solution with the Hammer K3, Felder took note and incorporated his design as an option for the K3.

Mike, I have made similar observations before in that the installation is always done by a factory trained technician in Europe. In countries where people live in less populated areas such as Canada, the US or Australia that approach doe not always work and the culture of do it yourself predominates. Unfortunately another part of the Germanic culture is a resistance to anyone diverting from what they see as the norm. Why I need detailed drawings of the machine I am yet to find out.

[Julie Moriarty]

Call me a cynic but if Felder were so concerned by this thread they would have taken steps to join in or at least contacted Julie and offer assistance to rectify the problem. Secondly it seems they have had some problems in the past and have produced technical docs to help with those problems so why haven't they made them known to all new machine owners. If it was me that information would be part of buying the machine and I would have appointed one single person to deal with any questions.

I did get a call, from Tim Derr at the DE office. He said he had been following this thread and wanted to discuss the issues I expressed here. He has been helpful in making things happen but when it comes to documents, I get the sense they are not readily available to him. It seems he has to hunt them down. In response to a service tech manual, he said he would have to ask the service techs.

Mike, while I understand there is a difference in the cultures, the Felder franchisee here, ASW Machinery, Inc., has to know what U.S. customers expect. They could have either used their clout to get Felder to come up with solid documentation or make them themselves. They have service techs. Those techs could have been documenting the work they do all along and by now they could have a pretty robust service manual. OTOH, I realize they may see that as lost revenue but many of us can't justify paying a tech to fix what shouldn't have needing fixing in the first place. We can't send the machine back. That's not an option ASW offers. So at least help us get it up and running without incurring additional cost. Don't make this so difficult.

[Vijay Kumar]

I did get a call, from Tim Derr at the DE office. He said he had been following this thread and wanted to discuss the issues I expressed here. He has been helpful in making things happen but when it comes to documents, I get the sense they are not readily available to him. It seems he has to hunt them down. In response to a service tech manual, he said he would have to ask the service techs.

Mike, while I understand there is a difference in the cultures, the Felder franchisee here, ASW Machinery, Inc., has to know what U.S. customers expect. They could have either used their clout to get Felder to come up with solid documentation or make them themselves. They have service techs. Those techs could have been documenting the work they do all along and by now they could have a pretty robust service manual. OTOH, I realize they may see that as lost revenue but many of us can't justify paying a tech to fix what shouldn't have needing fixing in the first place. We can't send the machine back. That's not an option ASW offers. So at least help us get it up and running without incurring additional cost. Don't make this so difficult.

I have been following this thread. I was considering the purchase of this joiner planer. But with the deafening silence from Felder on this forum it is hard to justify buying this machine. Felder if you are following this post please respond and assure future customers such as me that you are listening and that you care. And please demonstrate this care. Take a cue from Amazon on customer service even on $ 10 items, leave alone machines that cost thousands.

[Greg Parrish]

I’ll be happy to allow them to send the service tech to visit me and help set up my machine as a show of goodwill to the group. They could set it up properly and show me how to make measurements and adjustments on it at the same time. That way, it will be ready to work without me going through the learning curve soon of trying to figure it out on my own, but will still be educational in showing me how to maintain going forward.

[Chris Parks]

Do any of the other more common brands send a tech out to commission the machine after it is purchased? I think not but the literature is more in tune with doing it yourself.

[Brian Holcombe]

SCM does not, it’s easy to forget but America is a fairly spread apart country so they would need to send trained logistics employees or fly a tech to every part of the country.

Germany, by comparison is half the size of Texas and Austria is smaller than PA.

[Phillip Mitchell]

What a thread...This one may go down in the SMC hall of fame.

[Rod Sheridan]

What a thread...This one may go down in the SMC hall of fame.

I think it will...............Rod.

[Mike King]

Well, you can pay for commissioning. The experience with commissioning, however, has been uneven. David Best wrote the Felder Owners Survival Guide to assist owners in setting up and maintaining their machines. The book, unfortunately, is out of print and used copies are snapped up. It provides detailed information on how to accomplish many tasks that differ from Felder's procedures in a manner that is both more efficient and accurate.

There's nothing new in this thread -- I've observed the same complaints for all the years I've owned a Felder machine and reading through the threads on the FOG site, these same complaints have been around for at least a decade if not longer. Some find the company's approach off-putting and eventually choose another line of equipment although it doesn't appear that SCM et. al. are any different. Others learn how to setup and maintain their equipment and find great machines.

I, personally, have found my Felder to have vastly improved my ability to do high quality woodworking. If I could carry it, my Felder would be on the deserted island with me.

Mike

[Julie Moriarty]

So it sounds like Felder is unconcerned about delivering a plug and play machine or even providing sufficient documentation to help the new owner get it up and running? Is our higher expectations the result of being used to getting what you pay for or does Felder believe what they give the customer is sufficient to justify the price?

Personally, had I known I was going to get a machine I had to fix right out of the box, I would have just worked with the Dewalt. At least they stand behind their products and I would have had $5k more than I do now.

[David Kumm]

Companies aren't in business to manage our expectations. They serve Kool Aid and we choose to drink it. A JP is a little like an amphibious car, both or neither a boat or car depending on your point of view. A planer is a fairly complicated woodworking machine. The better the design, the more complicated. A jointer is a relatively simple machine that relies on accurate machining and the better the machining, the higher the cost. Put the two together and you have a complicated machine needing accurate machining AND you put the table on hinges and design them to lock in place within a thou every time. It can and has been done but a Hofmann JP costs 35K so lower cost machines are likely to need some love periodically. I agree that there is no excuse for lack of documentation and that is an issue that should not be dependent on machine price. Because most documentation is crap anyway I prefer used as I can spend time fixing and adjusting a much higher level of machine and all of my new machines needed adjustment at the start and more often as the build is less.

In the old days, when I bought a car I also signed on for learning how to change the oil, plugs, points, starter, wheel bearings, water pump and on and on. I don't and can't do that anymore but I'd argue that woodworking machines are similar to those old cars. Some learning curve is needed to keep them running the way they should. You will get through the process and be better for it. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

So it sounds like Felder is unconcerned about delivering a plug and play machine or even providing sufficient documentation to help the new owner get it up and running?

Nope.

And that's true with every piece of equipment I've ever purchased. From every manufacturer. They all need something. Sometimes I've paid for the ability to say "show me how it works when you're done" sometimes I figure it out on my own.

Trust me when I say your experience is just scratching the surface of hassle.

Problem solving 101:
Evaluate
Prioritize
Execute