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Thread: Justifying A Major Tool Purchase

  1. #511
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    I moved the rail back as far as possible. In the background I heard Mr. Goldberg cheering me on.
    Fence_Issue_10.jpg
    Really? This is what the engineers at Felder had in mind when designing a $5K machine?

    But there's still over 1-1/2" hanging over the end of the rail when the fence is all the way back.
    Fence_Issue_11.jpg
    At least the plastic set screw isn't showing anymore. But they are pretty much worthless. They are on the same side as the fence set knob, which negates one of them immediately.

    Well, now I have to see if I can get the tables set right. So far I've used this thing as intended for about 5 minutes. In my mind I keep seeing this kid
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." - Mark Twain

  2. #512
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    It's Saturday. Take the rest of the weekend off. Turn off the computer, take your S/O and do something fun and totally unrelated to rigging, woodworking or electrical.

    It's a new machine. It's a lot more complicated than the machines you ran before, and since it's a dual purpose machine, the design and operation will require some compromises. It's also European. There will be a learning curve. You'll figure it out, and in a few weeks you'll wonder how you ever got along without it. But take some time off for now. After all the time fighting with the old machine, the ordering, delivery and setup process, you need a break.

    I got a used PM 180 planer with a Byrd head nearly ten years ago. For the first six months I had it I was ready to sell it and buy another Grizzly. Then I got it dialed in and figured out it's quirks and it's practically automatic now, although I'm still discovering new ways to use it.

  3. #513
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    Really? This is what the engineers at Felder had in mind when designing a $5K machine?

    Unfortunately, I think that is EXACTLY what Felder had in mind. Like Martin said, at that price point and that it is a combo machine which to me is “designed compromise”. I look at it as you got two VERY capable machines in one. If you were to price a Felder or Format stand-alone planer or jointer, you would spend A LOT more than 5K for EACH.


    Last edited by Jim Becker; 09-22-2018 at 8:15 PM. Reason: fixed quote tagging

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Here's the thing, it's two tools in one. There will be sacrifices to each being everything can't be optimized, especially at that price point. Normally a jointer has a plate the fence rides on when it is off the table. I'm guessing with the jointer tables being hinged to swing out of the way for thicknessing, this isn't possible?
    I think this is the case as well, these machines even at the top of the range don't have a fence with the heft of those on a normal jointer. I have a Minimax FS41ES and the fence is OK but still kinda flimsy by comparison to any stand alone jointer of the same size range, let alone something like you'd find on a Martin or Hofmann.

    I assume this is due to the need to lift the tables, piling a 100lbs of fence on top of the machine probably makes the engineering requirements for the other parts go way up.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  5. Julie, You’ve taken it from one extreme to the other. I believe I said about 1/4” of the t-nut plate hanging out of the extrusion.

    The other point which was already made. You don’t rely on the fence in the most back position to be square unless you’re edge jointing a 12“ x 12“ log. I usually edge joint with the fence 2-8 inches from the front of the table. The only time my fence is all the way back is when I’m trying to flatten a 10-12 wide board.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie Moriarty View Post
    Maybe the 410mm guide rail will help in sliding it back and forth.


    The rail it came with is the 410mm one if it’s the same as mine. Just a little over 16”. We need a 500mm rail.

  7. #517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Mattingley View Post
    Julie, You’ve taken it from one extreme to the other. I believe I said about 1/4” of the t-nut plate hanging out of the extrusion.
    I took it to the extreme to see how fence worked when all the way back. But if all I moved it was 1/4" back, the back plastic set screw would clear the rail and cause another snag point. I was trying to avoid that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Mattingley View Post
    The other point which was already made. You don’t rely on the fence in the most back position to be square unless you’re edge jointing a 12“ x 12“ log. I usually edge joint with the fence 2-8 inches from the front of the table. The only time my fence is all the way back is when I’m trying to flatten a 10-12 wide board.
    I realize edge jointing can be easily done by bringing the fence forward but if I'm jointing wide boards, I can't face joint it then edge joint it and move on to the next. Not that big a deal but it would have been so easy to remedy that. Plus, when mine is all the way back it catches and I have to wiggle it to free it up.

    I know some people say, "At this price point," but this is one of the most expensive 12" JPs on the market. MiniMax is about the same and the Felder model is more. What other ones are out there that cost more than Hammer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Parrish View Post
    The rail it came with is the 410mm one if it’s the same as mine. Just a little over 16”. We need a 500mm rail.
    You're right! Shame on me for assuming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I think this is the case as well, these machines even at the top of the range don't have a fence with the heft of those on a normal jointer.
    There wouldn't be much in the way of added weight if they fixed the fence issue.
    • Design it so the stand-off washers don't catch
    • Provide a longer guide rail
    • Add a lip on the rail extrusion so it slips into the fence clamp slot - that way the assembly will remain snug to the guide rail


    The added weight would be almost nothing.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness..." - Mark Twain

  8. #518
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    Julie, you and I are talking about two completely different things. You’re talking about specific gripes with your fence and I’m talking about the lack of substance in fences for jointer/planer machines in general.

    A fence on a big jointer is a completely different animal than the fences provided on any of these jointer/planer machines.

  9. #519
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    Feb 2004
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    Perth, Australia
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    Julie, it strikes me that there is something either missing or incorrect about your set up.

    I am away from my shop at present (in Sydney with my wife visiting our son). When I return, tomorrow, I shall have a look at my set up and take some photos. It is just that, in addition to my earlier comment, I do not recall having a problem with the fence retaining its squareness. I check it fairly regularly out of habit, but need to actually adjust it perhaps once or twice a year.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #520
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    The A3 31 is marketed as a 12" jointer/planer. If you slide the fence back to the end of the fence rail you can't get a full 12 inches. I called Felder about that and was told that to get a full 12" you had to remove the fence since the rail wasn't long enough. I ended up buying a rail for a A3 41 to be able to get the advertised capacity. Personally I think that's a bit nuts.

    Cliff

  11. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Polubinsky View Post
    The A3 31 is marketed as a 12" jointer/planer. If you slide the fence back to the end of the fence rail you can't get a full 12 inches. I called Felder about that and was told that to get a full 12" you had to remove the fence since the rail wasn't long enough. I ended up buying a rail for a A3 41 to be able to get the advertised capacity. Personally I think that's a bit nuts.

    Cliff
    thats a good idea. Will have to look for a part number. Might be the only real solution to access the full bed with a square fence.

  12. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by John Sincerbeaux View Post
    I agree with Glen, the fence all the way back is a non issue because it is just not really being used.

    Brent, not sure if skewing a board is necessary over a spiral head? The cutters are skewed on the head by design as to give you a “shear” cut without skewing the board. My jointer has straight knives so I skew the boards as you suggest but I am not sure if that is still beneficial over a spiral head?
    You will still find situations where adding more skew, or taking away some skew will be helpful.

  13. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie Moriarty View Post

    I realize edge jointing can be easily done by bringing the fence forward but if I'm jointing wide boards, I can't face joint it then edge joint it and move on to the next.
    The solution to this is to batch operations. Face joint everything first and then do the edges. I skip the edge jointing because I have a slider to straight line them, but always batch my flattening as the very firs thing for a project. Then I move to thickness. Then the edges (at the slider) for me. Material is broken down to rough component lengths in many cases for all of this, too. Working shorter ups the precision, especially for flattening.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  14. #524
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    Seems lot of headaches for tool that is so exspensive.....

  15. #525
    Have two combos SCM from the 60's. Both were plug and play though on one the wiring inside was toast as SCM had some bad wiring at some point back then. When I was wiring and had the box open I could see trouble. Only one machine of the two had that bad wiring.

    The jointer fence is crappy on both but i got it they made it to be light for the on and off when you change functions. If they made it like the shaper fence likely 50 or 60 lbs it would be no fun. I noticed one of the old guys that I got one machine from made a wood fence for the shaper just to lighten that up. He was 6' 2" and 220 pounds and at one time an Olympic Caliber wrestler, so even with that going for him clearly he didnt like the weight of the shaper fence on and off.

    The Fence can be slide right to the back and it stays square all the time you can joint anywhere on it full width. You do need to check it for square each time if you take it on and off because you might bump it. Julie I only saw one square and I wouldnt trust a carpenter square for that. sure some are fine and some are not. I used one machine likely for 25 years before even checking tables. Had an issue on one job and the issue turned out to be the wood and not the machine. Still once i shimmed it it was accurate to .0005 infeed and outfeed table alignment Even before out minimal amount with a long accurate straight edge maybe .002 overall. Consider both were used full time in commercial shops and likely towards 40 years or more before I bought them and those owners never measured them or set them up. That stuff wasnt done then, the machines were delivered plugged in and people made a living. Speaks highly to how stuff was made in the past.

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