Justifying A Major Tool Purchase

[Derek Cohen]

I am still in Sydney (not home yet), but below is a photo of the jointer set up. Note that the fence rests on the very edge of the table, perhaps 1/4" (6mm) into it. With a table that is 310mm wide, there is a little over 12" (300mm) for jointing. Set up like this, the fence is not only square to the table, but very rarely requires an adjustment (even after much moving back-and-forth).

But .. but .. but, as I mentioned earlier, the fence is moved around for edge jointing. That is the only time that it is relevant that the fence is square.



Julie, are you expecting the fence to hang out in space, beyond the table? I cannot recall doing this. I will try it when home.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, are you expecting the fence to hang out in space, beyond the table?

What I was expecting was, when I move the fence to full width jointing, I could switch from face jointing to edge jointing without having to either square the fence up or move the fence forward to find a spot where it squares itself.

But mostly I was expecting the fence to slide easily along the rail and not encounter hangups or pinch points.

To achieve something close to that I
a) shimmed up the hinge cover - that stopped the stand-off washers from snagging.
b) moved the rail as far back as possible - that reduced the degree of "fall off" created when the rail clamp moves past the end of the rail. But it still hangs off the end. The rail is simply too short.
c) backed off the plastic adjustment screws in the rail clamp to the point they effectively serve no purpose. The clamp knob effectively negates one of the screws anyway, making those two adjustment screws useless.
d) and ran plane sole wax along the contact points between the guide rail and rail clamp.

It is now at the point where I cam move the fence back and forth without the plastic stand-off washers snagging. And, if I put pressure in the fence clamp while moving the fence back and forth, binding or jamming issues are minimal.

Fixing these issues, between engineering and manufacturing, should have been a no-brainer, that is if you truly care about the quality of your product and protecting your brand name. But absolutely, the guide rail should have been long enough to allow full seating of the T-nut at one end and keep the fence clamp fully on the guide rail at the other end. That fence gets moved all the time. It should move easily and without binding, jamming or snagging. And it should stay square through all 310mm of range. At this price point, all these issues should have already been resolved before leaving the factory.

If this was a Scorpion and I had these issues I would think, "You get what you pay for." But this JP is one of the most expensive 12" JPs on the market. Precision and quality should be expected. You should not expect to spend the first few days of ownership fixing all the deficiencies Felder left behind.

About 20 years ago I bought a Delta Contractor saw. I opened the boxes and assembled it and started sawing. It's been running great ever since. I paid about $900 at the time.

A few years later I bought a Jet 18" bandsaw. I uncrated it, set it up in my shop and started sawing. It's been running great ever since. I paid about $1,000 at the time.

Pretty much every machine I have bought over the years has performed, right out of the box, the same.

For the price I paid for the A3-31, I expected, at the very least, that same kind of experience. I don't think I'm asking too much.

Next up is getting the beds where they should be. Is it any wonder why I'm upset?

[Dan Friedrichs]

At this price point, all these issues should have already been resolved before leaving the factory.

If this was a Scorpion and I had these issues I would think, "You get what you pay for." But this JP is one of the most expensive 12" JPs on the market. Precision and quality should be expected. You should not expect to spend the first few days of ownership fixing all the deficiencies Felder left behind.

I would respectfully suggest your expectations may be miscalibrated. So far, the only issue you've had is that the fence isn't quite as refined as it could be. It is entirely functional, though. You don't need to square it every time you move it - it just has to be positioned onto the jointer bed, and not hanging off the very back edge. The fence can be positioned on the jointer bed in a place that gives you the full advertised width. In use, I think you will find that you never desire to push the fence "all the way back" - you'll pick it up and hang it somewhere when you're not edge jointing. I guess I just don't see the issue.

As a fellow A3-31 (well, C3-31) owner, I have never had any trouble resulting from the fence, and suspect that you won't either, once you put it to use. A combo machine is necessarily going to have design compromises: it lacks support off the back of the jointer (probably would interfere with the beds tilting), the fence needs to be lightweight (so it can be lifted and removed when planing), and the fence can't be mounted to the center of the machine (which would be much more robust than having it hang off the far edge, as it does).

It may seem like an expensive machine by our standards, but keep in mind that it's probably the cheapest machine Felder sells. You bought the cheapest new Toyota. It's light years ahead of a bicycle, but there has to be things that differentiate it from the 5 nicer Toyota models (and 7 nicer Lexus models) priced above it.

[Erik Loza]

What Dan said ^^^. I think issue is more of customer expectation than anything else. When I was selling Hammer machines, people bought them because they couldn’t afford a Felder and there was a certain amount of acceptance of that level or expectation. But this the early 2000’s and perhaps Felder’s aggressive marketing has changed that perception.

Not sure if anyone remembers a combo machine called the Robland. It was sold by a US dealer back in the 90’s and came to be pretty much loathed here in the States. Comments were that nothing held adjustments, it was cumbersome to switch over, etc. In Europe, however, everyone loved it. Why? Because there was no marketing hype to make you think your Corolla was a BMW or a Ferrari. You knew you were buying a Corolla. If you asked a European, they would probably tell you that yes, it was a hassle to switch over and did require frequent tuning but it was reliable, saved lots of space, and was capable of furniture-quality results. So, their reality matched their expectations.

Regarding your machine, that fence IS a Rube Goldberg contraption and probably would make me hate it, too, but things I have had MM customers do in the past to improve their J/P experience...

-If the fence is not sturdy enough for you, get a magnetic base for a dial indicator and back it up when you’re jointing big stuff.
-If the fence is not perpendicular enough for you, make an add-on fence out of UHMW and face-screw it to the aluminum jointer fence.
-Not sure how much or “if” you have really used the jointer much but I always buffed the cast iron tables pretty thoroughly with my R/O sander beforehand. A lot of the frustration with the fence comes from having to white-knuckle the board against the tables and fence when you’re jointing. “It moves”, etc. A good buffing to remove the factory machining ridges, then a coat of past wax, makes a huge difference in the user experience.

Hope this helps.

Erik

[Julie Moriarty]

I would respectfully suggest your expectations may be miscalibrated. So far, the only issue you've had is that the fence isn't quite as refined as it could be. It is entirely functional, though.

Well, I have only used for about 5 minutes so far. That's when the fence issue became obvious. When I read on another thread about the tables needing adjustment, I spent a couple of minutes to check mine. The infeed and outfeed tables are sufficiently off that adjustment is probably necessary. Kind of a lot, considering...

There will be those who, after buying one of the most expensive 12" JPs on the market will expect it to perform flawlessly. And there will be those who see Hammer as a cheap brand and expect there to be issues. I guess it depends on your perspective. I think it's great for Felder there are customers who have low expectations of Hammer. I suppose if I worked in a wood shop all my life, I would see Hammer that way.

But when I was considering this purchase, I looked at every 12" JP I could find. The only one I knew was more costly was the Felder brand. In my shop you'll find tools made by Lie-Neilsen, Auriou, Starrett, Veritas and Festool. Maybe not all are top of the line but they are all very well-made tools and perform perfectly. I paid the extra money because quality matters to me. And those brands delivered. I realize those tools are not big machines but, as I said earlier, my floor model Jet and Delta machines, certainly not considered in the same league as Hammer, performed right out of the box. Just as a Toyota would. So Hammer isn't even a Toyota. It's more like a Chevy, but priced much higher.

[Dan Friedrichs]

My comment probably came across too harshly - I entirely agree that advertised performance out-of-the-box is a reasonable expectation. Needing extensive adjustment or rework definitely isn't.

I'd suggest putting a few more hours on the machine before reworking the fence much further. I went out to mine, last night, and scratched my head a bit trying to figure out what's going on with yours. My suspicion is that the problem you're seeing is one that might look obvious, now, but doesn't appear in practical use. Derek has kinda said the same thing. Joint some boards and see if it actually bothers you when in use. It might. Or it might not.

The tables, though. How misaligned are they?

[Derek Cohen]

What I was expecting was, when I move the fence to full width jointing, I could switch from face jointing to edge jointing without having to either square the fence up or move the fence forward to find a spot where it squares itself.

Julie, when switching from jointer to thicknesser/planer, I bring the fence full forward. This brings with it the rear rail, and tucks it out of the way when the beds are raised up.

When moving from thicknesser to jointer, the fence is slid back to the far edge. There is no need to slide it further back.

b) moved the rail as far back as possible - that reduced the degree of "fall off" created when the rail clamp moves past the end of the rail. But it still hangs off the end. The rail is simply too short.

Now this is another matter. The rail sounds as if it is not positioned correctly. I'll check mine tomorrow.

Regards from Sydney

Derek

[Julie Moriarty]

What Dan said ^^^. I think issue is more of customer expectation than anything else. When I was selling Hammer machines, people bought them because they couldn’t afford a Felder and there was a certain amount of acceptance of that level or expectation. But this the early 2000’s and perhaps Felder’s aggressive marketing has changed that perception.

Erik, you have been around woodworking machines a long time. And you've probably seen most of them in operation. So you have seen some of the best machines woodworking machines in action and that has given you a perspective I, and most individual users, don't have. But we shouldn't be expected to. This is not our career.

When I was working in the field and we had big pipe to bend, I hoped the contractor would send a Greenlee hydraulic table bender out to the job. The big contractors usually did and it made bending big pipe so easy. The first time an Enerpac hydraulic bender arrived on the job, all you could hear was moans and groans. It probably added another 25% to the labor hours. I know conduit benders very well. And I when I compare one to the other, I do that from the perspective of a professional. It's automatic for me so I understand where you're coming from and I appreciate you trying to help. But I just expected more.

$5K is a lot of money for an individual to spend on a single tool that won't have a return on investment. There are a lot of cheaper JPs on the market. But those of us who spend the extra money expect to get a machine that works perfectly right out of the box. That's why we spend that extra $$$.

I wanted a precision machine and I thought Felder/Hammer would deliver on that. They didn't. But what spoke volumes about Felder was when a Felder rep told me that a company that just purchased a Format4 Exact 63 had to call Felder for help to get it calibrated. And this was right out of the box. So this is not just a Hammer thing.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I bought it. Felder isn't going to come in and offer to send someone to calibrate it or offer a full refund. I will have to make this thing work.

[Julie Moriarty]

My comment probably came across too harshly - I entirely agree that advertised performance out-of-the-box is a reasonable expectation. Needing extensive adjustment or rework definitely isn't.

I'd suggest putting a few more hours on the machine before reworking the fence much further. I went out to mine, last night, and scratched my head a bit trying to figure out what's going on with yours. My suspicion is that the problem you're seeing is one that might look obvious, now, but doesn't appear in practical use. Derek has kinda said the same thing. Joint some boards and see if it actually bothers you when in use. It might. Or it might not.

The tables, though. How misaligned are they?

No problem Dan. I just have a hard time seeing this as normal.

As to the tables, the infeed table drops off .015 over 18". There are other variations I measured but I don't know if they will matter.

[Van Huskey]

Julie, may I make a suggestion? This entire process has been psychologically draining on you (and I gather your SO). My suggestion is TRY to forget all this and simply use the jointer. I see more people "waste" concern on jointers than any other piece of machinery in a woodshop. I think you will find that the results you will get are fine. I absolutely see what you are talking about but in 25+ years of woodworking, I can't remember a single time I needed that last inch while edge jointing, actually I can't remember a time I needed more than 6" of edge jointing capability. Plus I always face and edge joint in separate batches since I prefer the fence to be closer to me edge jointing which simply produces less fatigue.

If you are anything like me, and reading this thread I suspect you are, you are setting yourself up to never be satisfied with your purchase. Once you are milling wood with 2 sets of square and parallel faces you will likely be smiling and the chances of that last inch of fence travel EVER being an issue are extremely limited.

[Greg Parrish]

I tried to walk away for a bit and focus on something else but every time I come back on I get sucked back into thinking about it. LOL

anyway, I’ve been spending my last week working on a construction grade set of stairs for my kids loft bed. Not fine furniture here so no critiques necessary......... I already know it’s crude. No jointer or planer use. Whole thing made from spruce panels, select pine and reclaimed cypress accents. I had already planned the cypress a while back.

That said, I hate painting with a patron and this has kept me busy painting for 3 or 4 days off and on. About to run up to west marine for some sanded clear coat to use on the treads once the clear coat dries and I finish sand everything. Then it’s onto the hand rails.

The hammer will will be waiting for me next weekend when I decide to dive back into it. In the mean time, I’ll finish these and then finish my workshop shuffle while I read up further to decide on next weekends plan of action to tackle the hammer.

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p3082429207-4.jpg

[marty fretheim]

I don't have the hammer but have the Felder AD 741. On my fence there is a bracket that the rear guard slides on.

IMG_0461.jpgIMG_0459.jpgIMG_0460.jpg

That bracket is mounted with two bolts in slotted grooves. Adjust it up so it supports the fence so it rides up off the table, or at least holds most of the weight. I have mine adjusted up so the plastic washers on the bottom of the fence never touch the table. You can set it however you like. I am assuming your bracket is adjustable, if not you maybe could add some shim washers on picture three to hold the fence higher. If the fence isn't riding on the table it won't drop when you slide back.

The slot in the rear guard in picture one needs to be parallel with the fence rail or it will bind up when you move the fence forward and back. The fence rail is mounted with two bolts and you should be able to run one in or out a bit to get the fence parallel. Everything on these machines is adjustable. Just take the time to tweek it some and everything will hopefully be fine. Here's some pics of the fence on mine.

IMG_0468.jpgIMG_0464.jpg

As as you can see it's much stouter than the hammer but this machine cost twice as much as you paid. So no, you do not have the most expensive J/P on the market. The one I wanted was the AD 951 but it costs 3 times what you paid. Mine was not perfect when it arrived. It came halfway around the globe. They claim it was perfectly adjusted in Austria and may well have been. They tell you not to lift it by the tables or even manhandle it by the tables when you move it in to the shop. I didn't lift it but I did manhandle it some. Mine took some tweeking to get things right. I'll never know if I knocked things out of alignment or if it was some other reason. It doesn't matter. There's too many variables. Is your shop floor level, is your mobile base flexing when you move it around? Mine is stationary and I had to shim it up to compensate for my floor.

I called Felder and they sent me more detailed documentation for adjustments. When that didn't work I called them back and they sent me even more detailed documentation lol. I joined the Felder Owners Group and got even more advise. I finally got everything dialed in so there was no snipe on the jointer. Out of the blue a couple years later, for no apparent reason the jointer started sniping again. I raised the out feed table a little and it went away. Took less than 10 minutes.

I had snipe issues with the planer. I used a Oneway multi-gauge to verify that the cutter block and the planer table were parallel and the infeed and outfeed rollers were set to the right specs. The specs they sent me were for the straight blade cutters and not for the silent power cutter head that I have. After I figured out they were the wrong specs, I realized it was set right from the factory and I adjusted it out of spec.

I lucked out. One day a Felder employee called me. He was a technician that was trying to set up a sales area in Colorado. He wanted to know if he could send a couple of potential clients to my shop to see the these machines in person. I have a saw/shaper as well as a bandsaw from Felder. I told him my J/P was having some issues. He volunteered to come over and fix it for me. He adjusted the rollers back to the factory settings and then tweeked the the pressure settings (springs) on the rollers and voila the snipe disappeared forever (so far). The pressure settings are in my opinion key to snipe on the planer. The outfeed table height on the jointer is the key to fixing snipe on my jointer. Getting the tables all dialed in is another thing altogether, but there is plenty of advise out there to do that also. I too thought I needed an extension table on the outfeed of the planer so I bought one and installed it. The first thing he did was remove it. He tried to be polite but I saw him roll his eyes a bit. It adds weight to one side of the table. Since then I haven't re-installed it. Haven't needed it.

Once I got it through my head that this machine wasn't going to be "Turn Key" I set about trying to fix it. Now that I have I know how it was engineered and how things work. Another poster said that in Europe they sell these machines expecting that a local technician will set it up for you. This is the Wild West and were on our own. I am a Journeyman Lineman. Your a Journeyman Wireman. We all know sparkies are smarter than linemen. Use that IBEW ingenuity. Heck, we all know those Austrians drink beer on their lunch breaks. Maybe yours was assembled on a Friday right after lunch. Or maybe it was too many fork lift drivers.

Unless your tables are are so warped or the frame (sheet metal ) is so out of whack everything should be able to be re-calibrated. If that's the case then you have a legitimate warranty issue. If not, get it dialed in and you will be amazed at how well it works. I just spent almost as much time posting this as I would have spent adjusting the machine.

I'd be happy to share what documentation/knowledge I've learned. PM me if your interested. Join the Felder Owners Group also. These guys buy the Format-4 machines and still expect and understand how to dial them in.

Marty

[hugh lonner]

-Not sure how much or “if” you have really used the jointer much but I always buffed the cast iron tables pretty thoroughly with my R/O sander beforehand. A lot of the frustration with the fence comes from having to white-knuckle the board against the tables and fence when you’re jointing. “It moves”, etc. A good buffing to remove the factory machining ridges, then a coat of past wax, makes a huge difference in the user experience.



Erik

Erik, I've seen others make this recommendation before, too, and always wanted to try it, but been afraid that I'd do something to damage the machine. Are there grits I should or shouldn't use or any major don'ts? (I assume it should be hard to destroy a jointer given that we use the RO sander on wood without doing damage, but my wood doesn't cost thousands of dollars so I do want to be safe).

Julie, I think you should call the Felder number in Delaware if you are having trouble getting things set up the way you want it. I've found them to be very friendly and to really care if I'm happy (including multiple followup phone calls on a machine that was many years out of warranty).

[Brian Holcombe]

No problem Dan. I just have a hard time seeing this as normal.

As to the tables, the infeed table drops off .015 over 18". There are other variations I measured but I don't know if they will matter.

What method are you using to determine this?

[Julie Moriarty]

Julie, may I make a suggestion? This entire process has been psychologically draining on you (and I gather your SO). My suggestion is TRY to forget all this and simply use the jointer. I see more people "waste" concern on jointers than any other piece of machinery in a woodshop. I think you will find that the results you will get are fine. I absolutely see what you are talking about but in 25+ years of woodworking, I can't remember a single time I needed that last inch while edge jointing, actually I can't remember a time I needed more than 6" of edge jointing capability. Plus I always face and edge joint in separate batches since I prefer the fence to be closer to me edge jointing which simply produces less fatigue.

If you are anything like me, and reading this thread I suspect you are, you are setting yourself up to never be satisfied with your purchase. Once you are milling wood with 2 sets of square and parallel faces you will likely be smiling and the chances of that last inch of fence travel EVER being an issue are extremely limited.

Already conceded this Van. Yeah, that crummy fence setup got to me but I have fixed it enough to stop the washers from catching and make sliding it back and forth devoid of binding or catching.

What method are you using to determine this?

Eyeball. But really, I used a Veritas 24" straight edge, with 15" (not 18" as I said earlier) hanging over the infeed table. From there it was feeler gauges. I couldn't figure how to use the Betterly Uni-Gauge for this measurement. Using the eyeball method though, you can see the difference from one end to the other. I can see that possibly being a problem on glue ups.