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Thread: Help me identify this hand saw

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bender View Post
    It is one my father had but it would have been new before 1950 I think. I can only read some of the maker's mark on the plate and some of this may be wrong. I have used * for unreadable letters.

    Top line in large print, hard to read ***NNTPTAC

    In the middle in small print TRAIN

    And in the middle pretty clear WARRANTED

    And on the bottom in large print and clear NEW HAVEN CON
    http://www.library.yale.edu/thecityc..._home_addr.xls

    http://www.library.yale.edu/thecityc...ddress_CEO.xls

  2. #32
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    Rob Writes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Paul View Post
    Tom, the only saw I know of that has a skew back blade with a pseudo lambs tongue handle is Geo. Bishop's No 115 "Cincinnati Saw Co".
    Saw Manufacturers frequently provided saws to Hardware companies, with blades etched for the Customer's business. Perhaps your saw is a Bishop saw made specially for a New Haven hardware store ?
    see https://geobishopsaws.blogspot.com/2017/01/no115-cincinnati-saw-company.html?view=flipcard
    Rob, this is an excellent observation and triggered a random neuron to fire in my head this morning as I was thinking about this saw. I remembered that Erv Schaffer, in his excellent book "Hand Saw Makers of North America" listed all the hardware stores that resold saws from other makers (they are on pages 45-48 for those who have the book). I didn't see any hardware store except for Sargent operating out of New Haven. I'm sure Erv's list is not all inclusive, but considering the volume that would have been required to purchase a run of saws for custom etching, it's not unreasonable to assume that Sargent in fact sold this saw.

    Further, below is the entry for Sargent in Erv's book, page 47:

    sargent.jpg

    You will notice they sold a wide variety of other maker's saws, to include Disston and others. I looked through my catalogs and didn't see any Atkins or Simonds saws with that pseudo lamb's tongue that you pointed out. I don't have anything for CE Jennings, although I've had a lot of his saws, and don't recall seeing one like the OPs saw.

    Then it hit me that the answer could be right under our nose. Direct your attention to page 139, the No 40., third saw from the top:

    139.jpg

    The saw shown there is identical to the OPs in every way. Placement of the saw nuts, the pseudo lambs tongue and the skewed back. Looking further, this saw does not appear in the 1918 catalog, which is why many probably didn't draw the connection.

    I'd like to state that is an educated guess, and not proven fact, but when you consider that the OPs saw has a New Haven etch, and Sargent operated out of New Haven, AND sold Disston saws, AND Disston had an identical saw sold in their catalog called the #40 which looked identical, I don't think it is a stretch to conclude that Disston made that saw for Sargent and it was their Model #40.

    As an aside, I would LOVE to get an example of the "The Nabob". I wonder if Nabobs back then were Natteringly Negative? Something new to be on the lookout for.

    Regards,

    The Saw Troll

  3. #33
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    Here ya go...first come first serve....maybe you can id any of these...from 400 miles away....better hurry, trash day is Tuesday around here.
    IMG_5445 (640x480).jpg

  4. #34
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    Steven,

    Housekeeping is fun, glad you are ridding yourself of some of your less appreciated gems.

    The Saw Troll

  5. #35
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    Thanks Pete, the 115 and the 121 appear to have the same etch but with the top and bottom lines of text changed. Yesterday I put it in the mail to you for filing so you should have it today or tomorrow. I'll add an order for identification.

  6. #36
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    I received Tom's saw today in the mail and now can conclusively state that it is indeed a Disston #40 skew back saw. For the haters out there, or those who are skeptical, please consider this "Proof of Life" photo to prove I in fact have Tom's saw:

    ProofofLife.jpg

    With that out of the way, some analysis. The etch was very hard to make out, but with some digital enhancement with the right lighting, I offer the following:

    40_etch.jpg

    On the left hand side you can see the etch from the 1914 catalog and it has been magnified several times. On the right you can see the remnants of the etch of Tom's saw. It should be obvious to most the many similarities. Most prominent is the central star with the circle around it. Also visible is the "Trade" in "Trademark" and the word "Patent". Both match the etching in the catalog exactly in style and location.

    While it should be easily discernible that the bottom does indeed say "New Haven", the top I could only make out several letters. It was driving me crazy, I looked at it under different kinds of light, applied oils and dyes. Finally, I got just the right combination and I could make out the last three letters, "IAC". I immediately thought of Pontiac, but the word was way too long. I finally realized that the first letter was a Q. So, a long word, starting with a Q and ending in IAC. I fired up google maps pointed at New Haven, and the answer was right in front of my face:

    map.jpg

    From Wikipedia, the font of all knowledge: The Quinnipiac—rarely spelled Quinnipiack—is the English name for the Eansketambawg (meaning "original people"; c.f., Ojibwe: Anishinaabeg and Blackfoot: Niitsítapi), a Native American nation of the Algonquian family who inhabited the Wampanoki (i.e., "Dawnland"; c.f., Ojibwe: Waabanaki, Abenaki: Wabanakiyik) region, including present-day Connecticut.

    So, let's review. A saw made by Disston, the #40, presumably for Sargent, a large hardware dealer out of New Haven, CT. An etch which says "Quinnipiac" which is a marsh to the North of New Haven, and also the name of a modern day University.

    The one thing that is new, maybe anywhere, is that it appears that for the "Saws Etched to Order" it wasn't like they recreated the entire etch. Rather, they replaced the top name line and the bottom location line to suit the customer. I think that is new information which hopefully now that it is recorded here, can avert future flame wars on the topic.

    Some will likely disagree with the assessment, but, for those with a fair mind and an eye toward the facts, it seems pretty open and shut to me.

    All the best,

    The Saw Troll

  7. #37
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    Very cool, Pete. Thanks for sharing. And Tom, thanks to you as well for sending it to Pete so we can all benefit.

  8. #38
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    This is good stuff. Thank you, Pete.

  9. #39
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    Interesting that the Bishop 115 saw and the Disston 040 saw are identical in handle, blade, and overall etch designs, with the only difference being minor word changes within the etch and Bishop's "115" being replaced by Disston's "star" in the circle at the etch centre. I wonder who was copying who ? (Also, note that the central star in the etch on Tom's saw is upside down from the Disston illustration)

  10. #40
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    Rob,

    It's hard to imagine that Disston copied Bishop. Considering Disston in 1914 was already a world wide concern and Bishop was a small regional maker. Further, in 1914, Bishop was already circling the drain, going completely kaput in 1919 by merging with Ohlen. It would not surprise me if Bishop contracted with Disston to make that saw for them because Disston could make it cheaper than they could. Further, from the catalog:

    Hand filed and set, with beechwood handle, polished edges and 4 brass screws. This saw bears the ‘warranted superior’ medallion rather than the Geo H Bishop greyhound. This denotes it as one of the saws in the more modest price range.

    I think the fact that it comes with a warranted superior medallion supports this premise. I'm sure that would be the way that Disston made it and sold it. Digging into it further, I see that Bishop also made a P-26 saw. As most know, Disston bought out the Vulcan Saw Works in 1890, so for Bishop to make one of those saw models, he would have needed the permission of Henry Disston and Sons. When you buy a company, you get all their trademarks as well. No way they just decided to remake that saw in their own image without permission. Permission denotes some sort of cooperation between the two firms.

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